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Newbie; What engine is this? And what should I do?
I was told it is a 2.7 I just figured out where to look for the engine # so that will come tomorrow. The car is a 1969 911.
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-L.../WP_001074.jpg Right off the bat it has a few obvious issues like the hoses are squashed. And I am frantically trying to read up on these engines. How do I know if it has the heat reactors? (ie where do I look?) The fuel filter has to be changed as there is pure white smoke on running. But the 'fuel' filter seems floppy/loose. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-B.../WP_001132.jpg Can be moved like this; https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-d.../WP_001134.jpg The beast! https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-r.../WP_001098.jpg |
Search white smoke on startup, pretty normal if car has been sitting and will go away after a good long run to operating temp. The crinkled hoses won't affect anything until you want heat, and you'll probably backdate it anyway to look right in the car.
The thermal reactors are between the heads and the heat exchangers. Probably gone for an engine swap. The fuel filter should have a bracket fabricated for it. Buy Wayne's 101 project and engine rebuilding books. Worth the price of admission. Welcome to the madness!... :) |
it is a CIS motor of some sort; thermal reactors will be underneath if they are on it
get the #'s off of the engine to find out what it is search on critical + safety + issues & be sure to change the brake hoses for new rubber & tiers a '69 is valuable - several threads on them here good luck |
The front bumper looks like it's from a 1973.
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Can I remove that whole system as I don't need 'heat'. Just don't want to remove it if it is part of the cooling system however.
I will go over the braking system, and the tires are AWFUL! The worst I've ever seen and yet they still hold air. The white smoke never seems to stop, I suspect really bad gas and I don't want to do any damage so that's go to be resolved (dump the tank, change fuel filter). I will order the books, but since I'm in Canada, I have to wait! |
One other thing. That looks to be the fuel pump sitting there in the engine compartment and in the bracket for the fuel filter. Not a good place for it, IMO. Porsche put the high pressure fuel pump under the chassis--early CIS it was below the rear passenger seat, later CIS it was on the passenger side of the front cross beam (under the skid plate.) The CIS system also require a return line to the tank and a swirl pot inside the tank so, it's likely your tank has been switch out. However, the return line was routed through the center tunnel and yours may be routed some other way. It would be good to find out so that line is not exposed to the outside, underneath the car.
Lots of interesting things going on in that engine compartment. For safety sake, you don't want any high pressure fuel lines/components flopping around in the engine compartment. You've got a loose fuel filter and fuel accumulator (I think I see it in the background, behind the filter) laying in the engine bay. Once you figure just what you have and how it was installed, secure everything before you drive your car. On a positive note, I can see the oil line to the hydraulic chain tensioner in one of you photos. Also, the white smoke is probably oil rather than gas being burned off and, as mentioned, very common for a car sitting for a long period. It will take a bit of driving to get it all burned off and you will be hated by neighbors/other drivers as you do it (midnight runs are recommended.) |
Thanks guys! You have very sharp eyes (and minds!) for this stuff :) I was shy to post, but I'm glad I did.
The Vin is 119111242 so I'm positive it's a 1969, 911 Targa. The engine has been swapped for sure, but I didn't know where to look for the engine number till I searched on the forum (behind the fan ish). And yes the fuel filter and accumulator (I'm assuming the metal thing below it) are flopping around, the fuel pump is 'somewhat' secure. I will check the lines and figure what's going on and probably change them as the new ethanol seems to eat most gas lines after one year. More pictures! Wiring hell! https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-g.../WP_001087.jpg Took off a few hoses and it's messy! https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9.../WP_001089.jpg Leaks great!! https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-1.../WP_001115.jpg Some new hoses? https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/--.../WP_001120.jpg |
On the outside of lower left hand side of the blower fan there is a flat vertical boss near the temperature transmitter. There will be a number stamped there. It is your engine serial number. It will help us tell us which motor you have.
Here is a picture of where it is: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1377035296.jpg Also, you need to keep some of the paper hoses, they blow air over the exhaust near the heads and prevent over heating of the motot. |
Is this the same motor you have for sale?
What engine are you planning to install? You'll want heat up in Edmonton in the spring and fall. Search heater backdate for the information on whatever motor you will have in there. In the for sale ad you claim it is a '74. The car should run great with the 2.7 if it is in decent shape. Why not run it and sort the car completely and know everything you need to know before swapping engines? There is a lot to learn, but all the information is here at this site. |
I am going to pull my for sale ad. I was 'told' it's a 1974 CIS so I should confirm that before I do anything too rash.
I did a bunch of reading and the 2.7 scared me a little of the bat but I think it can all be fixed/taken care of. |
If it is a '74 and has been taken care of you have one of the better years as I believe the thermal reactors were added later.
The 11 blade fan and Carreras oil tensioners indicate it has been taken care of. Fix the fuel delivery system first and go from there. |
HarryD, that is pretty funny. That photo you supplied.........well only if its a 914/6 motor!
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Does appear to be but the appearance of the stamp is correct as is the location. Do reminder a 914/6 engine is a 2 liter flat 6.
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HarryD,
No, the location is not correct. 914/6 motors have the serial # stamped on the horizontal surface by the thermostat and the early oil pressure sender. Look carefully at your photo(rotate it 90 degrees). Thats what it is showing, not the vertical surface to the right of the fan near the late oil pressure sender. Thats what gave me the chuckle. |
I'm so confused!! :) Just kidding, I'll check both sides, but I think it should be on the right side of the fan when you are facing the fan.
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Keep supplying us with all the information/pictures you can, even the "oh, by the way.." that you may think is unimportant. Just found out, for example, the engine is supposed to be a 74 and, if so, it did not come with the thermal reactors as timmy2 already mentioned plus, there is no evidence of them in your under engine shots.
Couple of things to note. Your pop off valve, inside the air intake, is oriented incorrectly and may affect its functionality. The hinge on the valve typically is facing the rear of the car, not to the side. Reason being, the air filter slopes dramatically downward above the valve lid and it's possible the edge of the lid (in your case) could hang up on the filter element should a backfire pop it fully open. I know valves with the hinge toward the front will do that, that's why most all valves are positioned so the hinge is rearward allowing the lid to fully open in the area where the filter is furthest from it. I've actually never seen a pop off valve positioned like yours. Another thing, if you engine is a 74, it does not appear to have the original WUR (warm up regulator) and, consequently, the throttle position valve. That could mean it was replaced by a later WUR, or it could mean the engine is not a 74--your engine number posting will clear that up. Regardless, it will be important to give us the numbers off the top of the WUR when it comes time to get the engine set up properly. One last thing, does your car have a hand lever on the floor next to the driver's seat? Does that lever activate the throttle cable (does the gas pedal move downward slightly when you pull up on the lever?) I ask because that would be consistent with a 73.5-75 CIS engine. If the lever is not there or doesn't affect the throttle cable, then you have a later CIS set up with components that are hidden in your pictures under the air box. |
Engine : *6451389* -> There is cute little stars at the start and end like on a 356?! (It was on the right side of engine.)
ossiblue; I will! Great eyes on the 'pop off' valve! I thought a pop off valve was only on turbo engines so I ignored it in my searches. It is a little messed up on my car, there is some rubber 'glue' at the bottom of it, so it's been messed with. And I don't recall if there is a lever, except the ebrake? I didn't notice or look. The steering wheel is um, leaking! It's melted or something and it's goopy. Gross I know :) |
Not positive, but some searching says it's a 1975 911S engine? Anything significant or ??
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Don't know if it is significant but it will help you when you are tuning and repairing.
Pry the pop off valve out carefully, remove all old adhesive and then seal it back in there with some strong slow set 2 part epoxy. I used JB weld and it has held up well. So, what do you need to do to the car first? We can all help with directions and resources to get that car in great shape. Just need to know what you want to do. :) Maybe make a list of everything you have noticed that needs attention and go from there. |
A 1975 would have had thermal reactors but if you have an 11 blade fan and Carrera tensioners (like you can see in the pictures) then they may have been removed. They would be the heads and heat exchangers.
Have you done a compression check? When you start the car, do you hear a pft-pft sound? What is the oil consumption? For your pop off valve, many use a 2 part epoxy, but I prefer to use RTV. To my way of thinking, the RTV will hold for most backfires and if it is huge, the RTV will fail and still protect my box. Since the RTV is soft (even after setting), I can then push the pop off back in and have some hope of it sealing and being able to get home |
Well, no compression test yet as I am getting limited time with her.
It starts, but it takes a few cranks. Then it runs 'fine', but after a few minutes it starts to POUR white smoke. There is a noise (piston slap?) at higher RPM's, around 3K. I can attempt to make a video of it! It has lots of issues; 1) There is space for 2 batteries, but only one positive, one negative cable. Doesn't worry me much. 2) The engine I would like to get sorted out. I ordered books/parts from Pelican, so, waiting, and reading! I want to do an oil change (I think I have that figured out), fuel filter change (sort fuel lines), brakes (the rotors are rusty), there is pedal. 3) The steering wheel is MELTING. Well, melted? It's turning into mush. 4) Needs lots of cleaning. 5) Tires :) I'm worried the engine might be toast (er, I mean more specifically, headstuds pulled) so I will plan on taking the valves covers off, doing the valves, and gently torquing the heads? Is that the plan to take? Plus the compression test. |
I checked in my red book, and yes, you have a US '75 911S engine rated at 165hp. A fine engine if it's had all the proper work done to it already.
With battery outputs higher these days, you only need one battery. I like the $100 Bosch batteries they sell at Pep Boys...just ask for one for a '95 Miata. They slide right into one of your battery boxes. Make a video of the engine noise...sometimes it can be a slack chain tensioner. That wiring mess is likely due to wiring the '75 engine and CIS components to the '69 wiring harness. '69s have a weird 1-year only harness design. The red painted parts of your wheels (that was THE style in the 80s) should be repainted satin black. A good time to tape them up and paint them is right before you put new tires on. Best of luck with your new project! |
Sounds like you are on the right track with lots to do.
3000 rpm isn't high for our cars, it is where they just start to run well. They don't like to be lugged at all. Break in RPM's for seating the rings is 4000 rpm! Do your best to describe the noise and get a recording. Could just be a valve adjustment is needed. Don't re torque the head stud nuts, just very lightly try to see if they are all tight. Sorting out your fuel delivery is very important. Good luck and keep posting what you find. |
A 1969 was originally designed to have two batteries wired in parallel. As noted above, one will be sufficient. so you should be fine.
As far as getting on the road, if it was me, my short list would be: 1-Pull the valve covers and check if the head studs are snug (just put a wrench on each one, go from the middle in a cris cross pattern). Hope fully a gentile tug will show them to be ok (i.e. not moving). Do a valve adjustment while you are in there. 2-Determine if the thermal reactors are gone. 3-Get your fuel system corrected. your car was designed to have the fuel pump located outside the car in a bracket below the rear seat behind the driver. Many relocate the pump directly behind the fuel tank in the front of the like they did in the later cars. The filter and accumulator is located in front of the CDI Box. If you can, find someone with an early car and ask to look how things are arranged. |
Misdiagnosis!! The smoke is not coming out of the exhaust pipe. It's coming from inside the exhaust, there is oil inside it?? So much so that the sides of the exhaust look oil soaked?? I didn't think this was possible, maybe the oil is dripping out the sides.
The car starts on the first try and the 'noise' is from the exhaust rattling off the rear bumper. So, PHEW!!! I will post a video and maybe it can be confirmed. The entire engine bay easily fills up with white smoke, so I have not really let it get 'warm'. I just moved it 10 feet up into the back. |
VIDEOS! Sorry I don't know how to do the cool imbed, these are youtube links;
I took off some of the hoses; 2.7 Running - YouTube Smokey! It got much worse after this; And it sounds really horrible. Please don't let my newbie diagnosis of the noise pre judge what you may think. Please let me know! WP 20130916 195615Z - YouTube |
Oil leak up top dripping onto the hot exhaust. I would check crankcase breather hose, thermostat and the oil sensor. Basically, eyeball around the engine case for where the oil is leaking out. Plenty of places on these engines that will leak. Some are easy fixes, some aren't. Get a flashlight and an inspection mirror and start searching.
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where are you located at? I'll come by and pick it up for what u paid plus 5%. Problem solved.
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You can wire me the $105,000 and I'll tell you where to pick it up. SmileWavy |
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I feel like removing the top part of the engine (induction, fan) but I'm going to wait for my FSM/books/parts before I do that. |
To get a look behind the air box, remove the air filter cover and you will see an inverted U which connects the fuel distributor (roundish thing with lines going the each injector) to the throttle body. Remove only the U. You should then be able to see the breather vent, thermostat and sender. You may need a mirror and be a bit of a coutortionist to do your inspection. Otherwise you will need to drop the engine.
This thread may be helpful: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/763147-help-finding-oil-leak-pictures-please.html And this: Quote:
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Would it be easier just to pull the engine and clean/fix the leaks that way? Or leave it in and fix them? For some reason, I'm itching to tear it apart. But if I do, I know it's going to take all winter to put it back together.
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Depends what you want. I like to drive so a major disassembly would be something I avoid. Others like the work so it makes an ok winter project.
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You will want to read this thread: http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/771739-seeking-advice-removing-cis-engine-car.html
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You're in Edmonton so drive it for another month to shake it out for any other needs and then drop the drive train for the winter. Have it ready for spring and get a full season next year out of it. :)
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That bumper looks so wrong... always hated the rubber horns. Someone has obviously done a lot of modifications on that car. You will probably be best off going through it very carefully to find other modifications that may affect safety/reliability.
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what service or parts receipts did you get with the car?
I always go thru them and enter some of the info along with date & mileage into Excel when I buy a car - if the engine has never been documented as being worked on then a tear down could be interesting. OTOH, the critical things are (in order) 1. brakes; 2. suspension (bushings always need to be replaced after 20 years); 3. engine you also want to decide the direction to go with when building up a car - maybe MFI or carbs and a hotter cam, with pistons to match... or maybe a different motor entirely |
Well, I decided to take it apart a bit uptop. It's 'driveable' but I don't want to wreck anything. I did some reading and I'm pretty sure my 'triangle of death' needs sealing up.
The car came with NOTHING. Just, cars, key, regy :) (And a great price so I'm never going to complain). Small things first; The 'heater' tubes etc were just hanging there so I took them off. On this 'open port' there was a huuuuge rubber heater hose, so I shortened it. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-e.../WP_001189.jpg I took off the coil bracket to remove the plastic piece behind it. And I found this wire broken off (looks like a ground?). It clips to the side of the dizzy. https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-b.../WP_001191.jpg After removing the plastic piece, I used my technology wizard to have a look inside. YUP! LEAKY! https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-V.../WP_001196.jpg Weight reduction?? :) https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-4.../WP_001201.jpg Behind the non-op fan was this mess. I took this mostly for myself to see how and where the fuel is going. But if anyone can explain that would be great. One line comes in from the fuel tank to the fuel pump.. and then something somehwere somehow fuel filter tubes metal ... out back to tank?? :) https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-u.../WP_001204.jpg https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-M.../WP_001206.jpg I will do more reading and try to pull the CIS IN situ and fix the leaks. Thank you for all your help and advice!! |
A drivetrain drop ( engine and tranny mated) takes about 3-4 hours the first time if you are a decent wrench.
You will have access to everything and be able to gain a better look at where and what everything is. |
I will flip a coin and let fate decide!
I found this link (I like step by step!) also; http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/700716-removing-cis-engine-car-writeup.html Is there a good step by step off hand to drop engine? :) (I will eventually find it I know, but if someone has it handy).... otoh, I should really wait for the manuals!! |
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