Hostie de calice de tabernacle…

Well on the up side, its no longer summer and your 2nd drop will be faster and in more confidence.

Here is one of the review of the product:

Fragile
By KTL, submitted July 22, 2013
Comments: Just a paper seal so need to be wary of installation. Sometimes can shift when installing cover plate and causes pesky leak. Look behind chain box after install to ensure good alignment, otherwise you'll be… (well you can guess what)

Sorry to see that. Quite the killjoy, I know. I posted that Fragile comment after experiencing the killjoy myself after having that leak on the race car after its maiden voyage (and race winning- first ever I'm proud to say) after the engine build 7/2012. Posted my review when buying parts this year.....

Will be interesting to see the seal position when you disassemble. Only thing I can recommend is to put 574 on the gasket next time

Did you surface the cover plate? The can be not so flat after many years of the clamp force on the plate. I doubt it's the o ring leaking

I did not surface the cover plate. I now have a nice piece of laminated float glass in the garage and will look into it.

I've googled this and it seems that John Walked posted in a prior thread that its not necessary to remove the cam to get at the seals - Kevin did you find that to be the case?

I can weight in that there's no need to remove the cam to do the seals. I surfaced my plates and installed the paper gasket dry after cleaning all surfaces with brake parts cleaner. I would recommend using a coating of grease on the o-ring the same as you used on your case through-bolt o-rings. Although we're accustomed during these builds to dress most surfaces and gaskets, the paper gaskets seal quite well naked; they're not plain old paper and do bond with the surfaces when prepped correctly.

If JW says it, publish it.

No need to remove the cam as you can just peel the gasket off since it's fresh. Could probably do it in the car but the time spent fiddling around the engine bay probably isn't worth it? Got to be a bit tough to manage the cam counterholding tool and setting the timing with the engine in there.

Truthfully im not upset about redropping, im more worried that i dont have a clear plan about how to do this better. I suppose tearing it down will reveal a lot as will checking the flatness of the thrust plate. Without removing the cam, can i remove the chain carrier to check the flatness of the mating surface on the cam carrier?

Russ, sorry about the leak, you have had great progress the whole time. Sucks!!

So what should I do to prevent this? Surface both the chain housings?

Do I have someone else do it or is the flat glass WD40/sandpaper good enough?

Sorry again Russ!

Sorry to hear about that leak - I'm wondering if I just got lucky on mine since I used the same gasket that you did, light smear of Curil, pretty much the same process. As KTL said, at least everything should come apart readily, and since you had practice, you'll buzz right through this.

Having the engine out, you'll be able to thoroughly visualize all the parts without a lot of gymnastics too. Something's got to be out of whack, that's more than just seepage, so I would expect the source and cause to be fairly self-evident.

On the up-side, you know she's running great - congrats on that! - so that little bit of suspense is out of the way...

GK

I suppose it makes sense to order a few extra cam seals and o rings? Anything else? Don't see why i cant reuse the graphite gaskets on the chain cover, which i installed dry. Ditto for the chain tensioner o-rings, right?

I'd recommend minimums:

2x thrust plate rubber o-rings.
3x thrust plate paper gasket.
Both graphite chain cover gaskets.
2x hydraulic chain tensioner o-rings.

Never hurts to have extras on hand of items that are low cost and that have to ship.

Definitely get a new paper gasket or two to make sure you re-seal it as best as possible. The big o-rings should be fine to reuse. Same goes for the chain cover gaskets. Chain tensioner o-rings might be wise to grab another. Sometimes taking the cover off can disturb that.

I would just do the cam cover plate on the flat surface. Use 600 or 800 grit to save yourself some time. No need for it to be super fine surface like 1000 or 1500. But feel free to make the surface as smooth as you like. Color it with a permanent marker so you can see your progress.

I will be interested to see how your gasket looks when you get the cover off. I think it's more the lack of contact area between the cover and the cam housing, than it is the actual gasket position itself. I recall my leak being a strong one that ran down the case, right onto my exhaust (my exhaust was a set of crazy expensive custom headers from MODE that I inherited with the car and the exhaust was plumbed toward the inside of the engine) and made for a big mess. Definitely not a leak that can be ignored, unfortunately. Not to mention nobody likes ANY leaks after their hard work!

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/911-engine-rebuilding-forum/729496-another-gasket-sealing-question.html

The picture below is pre-rebuild, just to show the routing of the exhaust. I will be honest that the leakiness of the engine was the primary reason for the FULL rebuild after my first failure, which turned out to be a chain tension problem (seized idler arm) and there's no way an anal retentive nutjob like me could tolerate leaving all that filth on there......

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386516518.jpg

I'm developing a theory...

If anyone remembers I had trouble fitting the chain housing because my overzealous JB weld application was pushing it away from the cam housing/heads. I filed down the JB weld but if I didn't go far enough and left it slightly proud, could this cause a lack of contact between the thrust plate and cam carrier sealing surface? The thing that's odd about this area is that the three tiny M6 bolts in the thrust plate are the only fasteners that set the alignment of the chain housing with regards to the cam carrier. These surfaces must be parallel and yet all the big fasteners in the chain housing are running E/W not N/S so to speak.

Good point about the JB weld. That would definitely affect the ability of the cam plate to seal. But remember also that the chain box has some M8 nuts that fasten it to the case, along with a couple of alignment dowel sleeves in the case to reliably locate the chain box repeatably every time. The cam plate has some "float" to it due to the lack of restraint on the OD by the o-ring. Meaning the o-ring allows for some misalignment to ensure the plate is sealing on the cam housing. But if the chain housing is a bit off due to the JB weld interference, that could be the source.

The M8's were the "E/W" fasteners I was referring to, but what sets the alignment of the chain box for/aft? I realize that to a large extent this is done by the M8's, but they are restraining the chain box in the weak axis with regards to fore/aft movement. In other words, they don't have the strength to overcome a little bit of an interference with JB Weld. The downside to this theory is that I'd need to pull the cam to truly investigate.

The confusing thing is that I removed some of the engine tin to get a better look at what's going on and I truly can't see any drips forming from the circumference of the cam seal, certainly not from the top. It must be weeping from the bottom and wicking directly down the chain housing.

Got all my disconnections done and should have the motor down tomorrow. Want to place my parts order asap, going to err on the side of more gaskets. Debating a new thrust plate. Not cheap ($42) but might be good insurance?

I noticed a bit of wetness at the soft line that attaches to the oil crossover line. This was the line I had to replace with a hose from a hydraulic shop. hard to tell if the wetness is from the threaded connection or my hose / clamp arrangement. Because of how PET is drawn its really hard to tell what the part number for this line is. Can anyone help?

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386555602.jpg

I think its part # 930 107 743 12

Which PP re-routes to this part http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/smart/more_info.cgi?pn=930-107-743-10-M127&catalog_description=&Oil%2520Line%252C%2520Oi l%2520Crossover%2520Pipe%2520to%2520External%2520T hermostat%252C%2520%2539%2531%2531%2520Turbo%2520% 2528%2531%2539%2538%2530%252D%2538%2539%2529%2520

The problem being its $100 and requires me to wrangle with the famously cranky thermostat fittings.

Placed my parts order. Took the belt and suspenders approach.

A few non leak related questions:

I drove for about 50mi to make sure there were no other issues needing attention during drop no 2. Only things i found were:

1. When engine braking there is a rough spot / resonance / vibration at 3500-3200rpm. Happens every time. I did switch exhausts. Didn't notice any immediate interference and the sound is not clangy or metallic, it is similar to a misbalanced wheel type of shake. I know these types of things are hard to diagnose, but are there any common mishaps? As mentioned before, i didn't level the rear engine carrier using any sort of science, just sorta nudged it into shape. Is it possible to hang the engine off center such that there is some engine/trans rubbing of the body or other components?

2. Also notice a subtle thud thud thud sound at idle. Cant hear it outside the car, can just about inside the car. Seems to away with clutch in.

Any thoughts?

Looks like your running the Bursch with turbo style muffler. It may be making contact with the car body underneath somewhere.

Guys -

Motor is back down, chain cover off. Have yet to remove the cam nut but took a closer look at the cam seal and noticed that on the leaking side the thrust plate is just about proud of the chain cover. Here's my pic from assembly:

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386645671.jpg


Whereas on the non-leaking left side, the thrust plate is proud of the chain cover by a few mm.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386645694.jpg

I'm trying to think what could be causing this? The geometry of this area is still a bit of a mystery to me. If anyone happens to have pictures of what their thrust plate looks like installed, please post. Wondering if I did something so monumentally stupid as not torque the 3 bolts on the right side? Or maybe since the torque values are so low, I got false readings from a binding o-ring? Should be able to tell tomorrow.

If you oiled or silicone pasted the o-ring, there should be no binding that would funk up your torquing of the thrust plate IMO. It's a tight fit but the force applied by the screw threads is plenty sufficient to move the plate along while the o-ring creates some drag due to it's squish

The geometry is a bit confusing. You've got to remember that the plate "floats" in the chain housing. Meaning it's got the ability to have varying depth in the direction of the cam axis & it can account for misalignment in terms of if the chain housing is not truly parallel with the face of the cam housing. The o-ring fit also slightly allows for potential eccentricity of the thrust plate vs. the chain housing opening.

Simply put, as long as the o-ring is engaged in the chain housing, it will seal via the compressed nature of the o-ring. That compression is all that is necessary since it's just splash oiling in the chain housing- no oil pressure is in it. It's really a pretty ingenious design to allow the cam housing & chain housing to interact together.

Your pictures of varying thrust plate exposure validates what i'm saying about the "float." The designers realized that controlling the seal depth in both the axial & radial directions is very difficult. So they chose to focus on the cam seal as the primary one, with a bolted gasket, and left the chain housing seal to just work itself out with the o-ring. The o-ring has proven to be very reliable here in my (limited) experience

The more important seal is (obviously) the cam housing seal. The sealing surface is fairly narrow on the housing itself. So it's critical to ensure the gasket is well aligned. Plus, the sealing surfaces are not all that flat. I don't have a picture of the thrust plate before surfacing but I know mine were not very true. You'll see this when you wet sand the plate. I suspect the plate uneven-ness is the result of being bolted in place for years & slightly distorting. So, if you don't reinstall the plate in the same clocking/orientation that it was originally installed, it seems like they can leak? Just a guess on my part.

Even more telling is the surface of the cam housing itself. See this picture of the sealing area that I colored with a marker and then ran a fine cut file across it in all directions.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386694594.jpg


Notice how much un-colored area there is, which means the red area is lower than the bright areas. This cam housing is a work in progress as I just did a test area on the housing to see how much work it needed to get it ready for installation. Point here is, the sealing surface on the cam housing is very narrow. The bright area on my housing is the result of running the file in all directions for a few minutes. That means before I even touched the surface with the file, the sealing surface was VERY narrow.

Hope that helps. Sorry I didn't mention this earlier during assembly. My limited experience is with a handful of these engines. So I don't want to make blanket statements like "be sure you resurface the thrust plate and cam bore sealing surface" if its truly not an epidemic problem? :confused:

Thanks Kevin this is a very clear and useful analysis of the sealing surfaces.

I now can understand why short of ripping the o-ring, it is a less problematic surface to seal. I can also see that since the thrust plate is floating it would seem that even if I have a minimal JB Weld conflict on the back of the chain box, the floating thrust plate would be allowed to find the surface of the cam carrier, true and flat with the bolts tightened down. If anything, I now guess that because there is more thrust plate proud of the chain box on the non-leaking side, its possible that the non-leaking side actually has more JB Weld pushing it away from the cam carrier.

I went ahead and bought a new thrust plate just to eliminate it as a variable.

The most irksome thought is resurfacing the cam carrier. Honestly, that would just kind of suck to have to take the cam out at this point.

I really don't know anything about how to pick a good sealant for a specific application. Via PM John Walker recommended a thin thin film of Dirko on the paper gasket, which is RTV. He mentioned that the wrong sealant can soften the paper and lead to it ripping. I mentioned that I have Ultra Gray on hand, not Dirko and he said, sure fine. Does anyone reading have enough of a grasp on what sealant you'd use if you suspected slightly out of flat parts ie what sealant has the best gap filling ability? Whatever sealant is used it will be used sparingly and as a dressing not alone, so In my view there is limited danger of it finding its way into oil passages etc. I don't ask to second guess John, but to help me get a deep understanding of the chemicals on my shelf, past "use this one here".

And finally, is this an area, like the rockers, where slightly higher than stock torque specs may be called for? I don't have the specs in front of me but I recall the number being surprisingly low

What is "Ultra Gray", a Threebond product? I use Threebond 1194, very thinly applied, on paper gaskets to very good effect but I also use a flat file to check mating surfaces as Kevin has shown. It's amazing how bad they can be!

Permatex Ultra Gray: Gasket Makers : Permatex® Ultra Grey® Rigid High-Torque RTV Silicone Gasket Maker

So is the moral of the story mean we have to surface our cam plates, cam housing, and chain housings?

And rocker covers, and anything else you want maximum mating surface on! :D

I would use the 574 sealant or the RTV, your choice. I like 574 better just because it hardens and less of it is likely to end up someplace you don't want it. It also is supposedly solvent (dissolves) in oil but I don't really see that happening in other locations around the engine.

Whereas RTV can withstand a nuclear blast w/out breaking down & it's amazing into what places that stuff can find its way. Both are a PITA to clean up and I only use 'em when absolutely necessary. Whichever you choose I agree 1000% that the amount applied is sparingly thin. Can't emphasize that enough considering future removal is not as easy as it used to be. Modern gasket/sealant solvents ain't as effective as they used to be.

Seems like surfacing the end of the cam housings and the thrust plates is good insurance. Obviously the cam housings are easy to do prior to assembly since you typically have to clean them up quite a bit anyway. Being an anal retentive clean freak, i've found the cam housings the most tedious part to clean, as well as usually being one of the filthiest, of all engine parts.

I've found the rocker covers and respective sealing surfaces on the cam housings usually are not a huge issue. Can get away with scraping those with a vertical razor blade (blade edge held perpendicular to the surface, not parallel) most of the time. It's the magnesium rocker covers that really need to be machined. Those things get all twisted up over time.

I wouldn't increase the torque spec on the thrust plate. Once it's flat, standard torque should apply. Plus if my theory of time distortion is correct, I suspect addn'l torque would increase that distortion?

I opened things up and unfortunately did not find a smoking gun. Maybe you all can help me.

Checked the bolts - all were torqued to 88 in-lb (7.4 ft-lbs) per Wayne's book.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386728048.jpg

Working in tight quarters I foolishly forgot about the woodruff key and thought the o-ring was fighting my removal of the thrust plate. To get some purchase on it I used a little hooked wire tool to do some pulling before I realized the woodruff was there. I mention this because I'm pretty sure I caused the misalignment seen @ 9 o'clock on dissasembly. Don't see how it would have folded up like that on assembly. Besides that I can't see how the alignment of the gasket could be too much better. Question - if oil makes it past the thinnest part of the paper gasket, to the bolt, is all lost, as the oil can migrate out of the bolt, or should the remainder of the gasket catch it? I believe one of the bolts had more oil on it than the rest, but its hard to tell.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386729121.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386728082.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386728223.jpg

The 'meat' around the 5 o'clock threaded hole looks like its a different shape than the other two, but it looks like the factory intended this. Can anyone confirm?

Again I'm not seeing anything unusual here. Kevin can you or anyone explain to me how the camshaft axial play is controled? Is it possible that the camshaft is riding too far rear and therefore absorbing the thrust of the thrust plate and preventing the paper gasket from being clamped as tightly as it should? This assembly is an odd one to me - the steel camshaft bears directly on the alloy thrust plate? I realize its oiled but can't quite get my head around this.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386728465.jpg

One thing that caught my eye is that it looks like the opening in the chain housing is not centered on the cam carrier bearing surface, so the thrust plate will not bear on apex of the paper gasket in this area. So far as I know the heads were not cut at all, just barely skimmed flat.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1386728727.jpg

The thrust plate felt reasonably flat on a piece of glass. I have a new one on order regardless. What is the correct way to flatten or check flatness of the cam carrier mating surface?

Finally, I know its not good policy to slather sealant around like peanut butter, and I realize it find its way anywhere, but for some insurance is there anything wrong with using a slightly heavier coating on this paper gasket?

Okay after thinking this through and reading lots of past threads I think its likely that the little folded ear on the gasket at 9 o'clock did happen upon install on account of the slightly eccentricity I noted above, but the tear right next to the threaded hole was the result of disassembly.

When I give this another shot should I trim down the gasket a tiny bit to prevent it from folding like that? Or maybe just "stick" it in place first with some RTV, sliding it behind the chain cover where it is "hidden" from the thrust plate?

That gasket looks like a leaker at 9 o'clock.

I would use a thin coating of 3bond to hold it and make a better seal.

Positioning of the gasket looks good. It's slightly off-center but still well within the flat area for sealing. The oil soaking around the gasket makes me think the gasket wasn't fully pressed against the cam housing, or the flatness issue we've been discussing.

Flatness of the thrust plate we've already covered- can be easily rectified by surfacing or buy a new plate. So what do we do about seating the gasket? Upon reassembly I would snug the thrust plate down nice & tight (don't gorilla tighten it) and then back off the bolts slightly, then retorque to the specified amount. That, along with use of some good sealant like RTV or 574, should ensure the gasket gets fully pressed against the cam housing and take care of the problem.

No all is not lost. If oil gets past the inner area of the gasket and reaches the bolt, sure it can run up & down the bolt threads. But that oil goes into the cam housing, where the holes are "blind," or into the chain housing as the oil passes under the head of the bolt on the thrust plate. Either way it's not leaving the engine as long as that portion of the gasket beyond the bolt hole is sealing.

Don't be tempted to get excessively heavy with the sealant. Still use a thin coating. Because when it squishes, it's going to push a bunch of the sealant out. In this instance you could use a ton of sealant and it really wouldn't matter. It's not going to find its way into the cam housing, nor into the chain housing by a large amount. It's just going to get oozed out to the exterior of the engine, between the back of the chain housing and the cam housing. Sure some excess would get in the middle on the cam itself but it'd just get spun around. Not going to find its way into the oil system until it's finely ground up by the spinning cam and then spit out the center hole of the thrust plate where it runs into the chain housing and then down into the engine case.

I would not hesitate to trim the gasket where that suspect ear occurred. Or just put the gasket on the cam housing first. The sealant will be tacky enough to hold it in place as you carefully seat the thrust plate uniformly by turning in the bolts. I would turn them in an alternating pattern a 1/2 turn at a time to avoid shifting the gasket once the thrust plate begins to contact the gasket

That little triangle paper gasket folded just a touch on mine, same area as yours, causing the same leak you had. I carefully replaced it using a very light touch of 574 and it was fine afterwards.

Exacto knife that corner, paper thin coat of 574, button her up and go drive the darn thing... well, once the roads are dry again!

Guys- I just received a new chain housing to block gasket from PP. It is paper thin. The one that came with my Wrightwood Racing kit is very thick - the thickest of any gasket in the entire cylinder head set if I recall. For sure this is contributing to the slight misalignment I'm seeing. Should I swap in the PP paper gasket, which is almost certainly inferior as a gasket, or just live with the slight misalignment, slip the new cam seal paper gasket in place carefully, past the misaligned 9 oclock ear, and "glue" it to the cam carrier with RTV or 574 before torquing down the new thrust plate...?

That thin gasket is fine. The mating surfaces of the chain housing and engine case are a bit messy so it's good to clean those up with the vertical razor blade trick and then coat your new gasket with the sealant (thinly applied!) of your choice.

As an example of how this area is fairly sensitive to alignment, my racecar engine has apparently been built and rebuilt a number of times. So the heads have been cut a few times (they're now below min thickness & next time i'll have to find some good used heads to start over), somebody decided to surface the former cam housings once, and it's common practice to surface the chain housings the same amount the heads have been surfaced.

All that being said, when I assemble my left bank (1-2-3) I cannot use a thick gasket on the chain housing because the alignment is WAY off. Plus the chain tensioner is quite extended (will be using a custom larger sprocket on the tensioner arm). I just use some Curil T to seal it up. Works just fine since its splash oiling. Even if it was pressurized oiling, you could still use Curil T because it's a good non-hardening flange sealant.

I used the thin paper one from Pelican.

Count me among the thin paper gasket users. I put a thin coat of Curil T on both sides, no leaks to date. I did use the thicker cylinder base gasket to compensate for the cuts made on the cylinders and heads, so I was very close on the centering of the cam to the chain housing.

I hope this does it for you, looking forward to seeing your results the second time around. Looks like this weekend is a good one for working in the garage, not so much for driving around though...

It is cold outside. Even with propane heat, it is cold inside my garage too.

However I was able to get my the cam gasket reinstalled, this time with a thin coat of Permatex Ultra Gray RTV on both sides. It worked well as "glue" to hold the gasket in place, but to be honest the amount of force needed to send the thrust plate home (even with lubricated o-ring) is such that its hard to be positive there was no torque applied to the gasket. I did my best to stick my head all around the motor to check for clocking and found none. I'm now quite certain that it was not clocking but the folding of the ear at 9 oclock that cause my leak last time, so hopefully I got it done right this time.

A bright spot... by marking the orientation of the cam to sprocket and gear I was able to re-set the timing spot on, first try. That much felt good.

Tomorrow I'll close her up and possible get her reinstalled. Not exactly in a rush however, based on the weather and "max performance summer" tires she's wearing.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1387153402.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1387153441.jpg

Well the cold has broken for a day so I seized the moment and got her almost re-installed. Those of you who use the tall jackstands and ATV jack or similar method (aka those who don't have a lift) - how do you deal with the fact that the car is not parallel to the ground where the motor is? I find this is only an issue when trying to start the 4 bolts, but it is a pain.

I just shove the engine all the way up into the car. Meaning, even though the engine/trans is sorta level & balancing on the jack, once you get it up into the car the trans is usually the first part to make contact with the mount points. Then as you continue to jack upward the whole assembly will pivot from the trans end.

As the engine end moves into position, you can wrestle with it a little bit to line up the semi-flexy cross bar & get those two main support bolts started a few turns by hand. Then go back to the trans end & fiddle with getting that end lined up. With the engine end partly fixed in place via the barely started engine mount bolts, you can take advantage of those bolts holding up the engine end & lower the jack a little bit to give you some ability to align the trans mounts.

Inneresting. So you start the engine bolts first. I've been going off Bentely which says start the trans bolts first, but what you're saying makes sense.

This is how I did mine, but the difference in my approach was that after rolling the engine into position I lowered the car over the engine leaving just enough room for me to crawl underneath. This way I only had to jack up and balance the engine for a very short distance, minimizing the risk of unintentional droppage, and rendering the car more parallel to the floor. I threaded the trans mount bolts first, but probably only because those lined up for me first.

Once I snugged up the four bolts, I jacked the car back up a few more inches to allow for freer movement underneath.