Getting a PPI doesn't seem realistic or possible.

[Matt Monson]

Javadog nailed it. I said value added reseller fir a reason. Call them dealers if you want, but not a flipper.

A VAS takes a '70 T with impact bumpers that has been parked for ten years, rebuilds the carbs, replaces the gas tank, and makes it run right.

He then converts it back to longnose, paints it, does a brake job and puts fresh tires on it. He takes a 4/5 condition car, makes it a couple of grades better and sells it on.

A flipper sees the same car, notices it has some mag gas burners and a factory S rear deck lid. He rips them off the car, sells them separately, replaces with replica parts and sells the car for what he paid for it, having already turned $4k on the takeoff parts.

Two very different members of the community.

[Uncle]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

I've read a lot of threads on this forum, and I've seen this quote many times, but the number used has usually been $20k, $25k, or more recently 30k.
And I totally agree with this. I'd much rather pay more up front for a better car. It's cheaper in the long run.
But, $50k might be where I draw the line. At that price point, I'd rather buy a true collector's 60's muscle or a modern sports car like the 997.

Look at my location. 911's cost more in every way here but the numbers don't matter. Its the point that matters.

Matt and Javadog make very good points.

[Charles Freeborn]

Going by the scenario outlined in the original post - I'd say if you're really that hot for a particular car:
1. Really know what you're looking at - i.e. age, usual issues, so on. Anything the seller says is about as credible as a fart.
2. Have your PPI person lined up in advance and get them to go along for the "test drive". Just say "he's my buddy and he knows about these cars", the old good cop - bad cop routine. Be willing to pay your "buddy".
3. Flash some cash. That'll get the sellers attention.
4. Go around the corner and talk with your " buddy".
5. If it's a winner, return with cash and let the seller know that you're willing to walk away.
5. Last but by all means most important be willing to walk away. There are lots of fish in the sea.

[safe]

Originally Posted by porschenut

Complete nonsense. PCA owners are enthusiasts and you'll have a good chance of finding a good car from one of them. Asking prices are not selling prices!

I live in Sweden, but if I would like to find a nice car I would go through Porsche Club Sweden, "Get the word out". That would find me a very nice car that's not the cheapest on the market but not ridiculously over priced either.

Put out an want to buy add, that will attract people that don't want to advertise their cars. That is where you find the real gems!

[PushingMyLuck]

Originally Posted by safe

Put out an want to buy add, that will attract people that don't want to advertise their cars. That is where you find the real gems!

Why would someone not want to advertise their car?

[MrBonus]

The only times I've had an issue with requesting a PPI from a private seller was when the car was questionably underpriced without any reason given for the pricing. Otherwise, I've twice had PPIs on the last two air-cooled cars I bought, both accommodated by private party sellers.

[safe]

Originally Posted by PushingMyLuck

Why would someone not want to advertise their car?

Maybe they are undecided if they want to sell or not and will answer a wanted add. Some people don't want to get a lot of phone calls and visits that for 90% leads to nothing.

The really nice cars out there change owners without ads through contacts.

[MrBonus]

Hell, half the cars in the for sale section of this forum have "PPIs welcome" in the thread body.

[blucille]

I'm not sure this is the best approach, but I'll tell you a little story about a car I sold.

The car wasn't really for sale, but a guy made an offer to me that was good for both of us. He wanted to prove that he was for real, and said, "I'll write you a check for $1000, when it clears, bring it (an hour away) for a ppi, to a well respected shop. If it uncovers something we haven't discussed, that is significant (low compression, broken head studs) and I decide I want to cancel the deal, you shall refund $800 of the $1000, keeping the $200 for you time".

I think his $200 was fairly low, would have liked to see more like $500, but I do believe the arrangement was fair. I feel that the $1000 showed good-faith interest in a really nice car, yet was too high to be considered 'non-refundable'

Recently when buying a car, I needed a week to sort out funds, so I gave $500 non-refundable deposit, plus another $5000 immediately after the ppi, with the rest of the funds coming a week later after the money got moved around.....again, fair to the seller and buyer.

Whatever the case, a PPI is really essential, getting some insight into the seller is probably more important than the car itself....bought one car where the seller never really was telling the truth, found bent rims, tires that had been driven-on flat, service records that went missing at the last minute.....but the car was a bargain, so I overlooked a lot of that stuff.

A few phrases that really matter....

You are buying the seller more than buying the car.

If you ever sell.....the place you make your money is by buying it well.

Buy the best car you can find and afford, it is money well spent to spend a little more upfront and not have a list of projects when you first bring the thing home.

Good luck.

[safe]

Originally Posted by sonett43

getting some insight into the seller is probably more important than the car itself....

You are buying the seller more than buying the car.

+1 on that.

I don't know if the owner history is freely available in the US, but one of the best research methods is to talk to previous owners, they are generally more truthful and open than the seller. Usually they like to talk about their old cars.

[NYNick]

I think not joining both the local and national PCA is a huge mistake. There are some very good cars for sale from members, who do seem to price them a little high. They don't necessarily sell them for those prices, but they know what they have, they take care of their cars for the most part, and are aficionados.

Plus, the local PCA guys are good guys (not snobs), use their cars, get together, know the good shops, who's car is what etc. I've always found them to be true Porsche people, like Pelicaners, who appreciate the marque.

And afterwards, when you own the car, why wouldn't you want to be a member for $40 per year? DE's, AX's, Treks, Rallys, Social gatherings? Geez, I thought that was what is was all about?

Nick

[blucille]

another suggestion is to talk to all the local wrenches who are decent, they are the first to know (a) whether a car is good or bad and (b) if the owner is thinking of selling

[McLovin]

I still never understand why people say "avoid ebay" or "avoid craigslist" when looking for a car. That just makes no sense to me at all. Why close your eyes to 2 of the currently largest marketplaces for buying and selling cars???

I don't understand the logic. It's almost like some people think that putting a good car on eBay somehow magically converts it into a bad car.

eBay and Craigslist are just places to advertise a car. And they are very popular places.

If you are looking for a 911, don't rule out any place to look. eBay and Clist are no different than anywhere else. There's total crap everywhere, ripoffs everywhere, and there are good cars everywhere. You have to judge the car by the car, not by where it is advertised. No place is 100% great, or 100% bad, so you shouldn't rule anywhere out.

My last three cars were bought from Pelican ('87 G50 Carrera, bought sight unseen and shipped to my house), Craigslist ('88 G50 Carrera, bought sight unseen, but went and picked it up 350 miles away and drove it home) and eBay (late 80s Ferrari, bought sight unseen and shipped to my house).

I sold the '87 Carrera on Pelican, the Ferrari on eBay, and will keep the '88 Carrera forever.

All three are great cars, I was happy to buy and the people I sold them to were happy to buy and own.

PCA Panorama is fine, too, but as a member for almost 25 years who has read the classified every month for that entire time, I can generalize by saying the cars are mostly way overpriced. But no harm in looking.

Also, I've noticed that many of the flippers have now joined PCA and advertise their cars there. I see some of the same flippers cars that are advertised on the dreaded eBay are also in Panorama.

[javadog]

Originally Posted by McLovin

I still never understand why people say "avoid ebay" or "avoid craigslist" when looking for a car. That just makes no sense to me at all. Why close your eyes to 2 of the currently largest marketplaces for buying and selling cars???

With regards to eBay, there are more bad cars than good ones. The small photos usually provided do a poor job of disclosing any useful information, the descriptions are usually fairly short and the limited time frame often makes it difficult to arrange a PPI, as any decent shop worth using for a PPI usually had a backlog of work and can't immediately schedule the inspection. Then, since it is an auction, you don't know the asking price on the front end, so you have to hope that an acceptable selling price is possible. You risk wasting money on a PPI for a car that may not sell at a price you are comfortable with. Remember, it is an auction, where emotion and stupidity apply. That's why they have auctions, there is a deadline in place and buyers are often in a situation where they have to make a decision, facts in hand or not. That's where emotion enters into the equation. Ever notice how easy it is to get free drinks at a big auction? They want you to bid with your emotions, not your logical side.

As for Craigslist, it's the easiest and cheapest way to list anything for sale. That's attractive to lazy people with nothing special to sell. It also attracts a younger clientele and they are not the ones with the good cars. Nobody that I know, in the car collecting world, even looks at Craigslist.

There are exceptions to every rule, obviously, but I'm going to spend my limited time starting at the top of the market, not the bottom. I've owned a lot of really nice cars and most of them were bought from a dealer or broker and more than a few changed hands out of the public eye.

JR

[Matt Monson]

Only reason I said skip eBay and clist is because if one is concerned about flippers and scum you can remove a large percentage of them by ignoring those two venues.

I used to check clist daily. It is a great place to find an underpriced gem. But it will be a car that you need to be ready to move on that day, show up with cash in hand, and have no expectation of a PPI. It's a great place to find condition 3 cars that on the surface appear to be a 4 or worse. But this doesn't seem like the car the OP is looking for and thus my personalized advice to skip clist and eBay.

[porschenut]

Originally Posted by McLovin

I still never understand why people say "avoid ebay" or "avoid craigslist" when looking for a car. That just makes no sense to me at all. Why close your eyes to 2 of the currently largest marketplaces for buying and selling cars???

I don't understand the logic. It's almost like some people think that putting a good car on eBay somehow magically converts it into a bad car.

eBay and Craigslist are just places to advertise a car. And they are very popular places.

ebay is an auction site. They are not advertisements. When you win an auction, it is a legally binding contract. You bought the car, period. If an auction is for 7 or 10 days, how are you going to have a conversation with the seller, travel across the country to see and drive it, and arrange a PPI and have the shop complete it all before the auction ends? It's not possible. Not to mention that after you've spent all that time and effort and money, you might get outbid in the end anyway. The only way you have a chance is if the auction ends without a winner and you can then contact the seller and convince him to deal with you without relisting it. But any seller who puts a car on ebay is going to also put it on CL or Autotrader or PCA or whatever, and you're going to see it on those other sites anyway, so why bother with ebay?

[ClickClickBoom]

Originally Posted by McLovin

I never get a PPI. That's not my method.

I show up with cash, inspect the car myself for a half hour, take it for a drive, look over the title and paperwork, and then do a quick and easy, under market value deal with the seller.

I've found that tends to give sellers quite a bit of "flexibility" in price.

I bought both my cars this way. The back story the seller gives, and how he tells it gives me most of what I need to know. I spend an hour or so going over the problem areas that are listed in many of the forums, if the insurmountable problems (rust, engine won't run ect) are absent I made the deal, both times the deal was fair. Being able to read people is a distinct advantage, coupled with a little tribal knowledge, means both cars were a good sale.
The key to remember is, it is a car, not a 300K airplane. If one isn't prepared to work on these cars they will be shocked at the cost to bring them back to snuff.

BTW, both PCars were bought off of craigslist, and one of my Landcruiser was bought off of eBay and, yes the other Landcruiser was bought off of craigslist too. I bought a 5speed transmission off of craigslist in Honolulu, it was exactly as advertised. Again if you cannot read the seller, it doesn't matter where or who you buy from, even a dealer will take you for a ride.

I make a fair living, but not enough to toss money into the hopper, I filled my home shop with craigslist and eBay tools at a substantial discount, the caveat is, you had best know your subject well, price and condition and be prepared to walk away if it doesn't smell right.

[McLovin]

eBay is an auction site, but that doesn't mean that all the cars sold there are necessarily through an auction.

Ever see an auction that says "Auction ended because the item is no longer available"?

Or the auction ends without reserve being met, or the "winning" bidder never shows up and the seller is left holding the car, etc. You make contact with the seller, and those "auctions" are really converted into a regular ad and "regular" used car transaction.

There's lots of ways to buy through eBay.

Anyways, IMO it's just a tool for a buyer and seller to use. It's become such a large marketplace, though, I think it's somewhat shortsighted to completely ignore it.

But, different people approach buying a car differently. Some want the ultimate in convenience and low risk and buy only new cars. Some buy used cars, but only CPO cars from franchise dealers. Others buy marked up cars from brokers or independent dealers. Etc.

Others, like myself, like the hunt, esp. the hunt for a great car at a great price. And have the experience to successfully do it, and have fun with it. As it turns out, since buying my first used car in 1983 as a teenager, and many since, I've never bought one from anyone other than a private party. I've looked at cars at lots, dealerships, etc., but never ended up buying one from them.

But there's really no right or wrong way, it depends on what's important to you, your experience, etc.

[McLovin]

Originally Posted by ClickClickBoom

I bought both my cars this way. The back story the seller gives, and how he tells it gives me most of what I need to know. I spend an hour or so going over the problem areas that are listed in many of the forums, if the insurmountable problems (rust, engine won't run ect) are absent I made the deal, both times the deal was fair. Being able to read people is a distinct advantage, coupled with a little tribal knowledge, means both cars were a good sale.
The key to remember is, it is a car, not a 300K airplane. If one isn't prepared to work on these cars they will be shocked at the cost to bring them back to snuff.

BTW, both PCars were bought off of craigslist, and one of my Landcruiser was bought off of eBay and, yes the other Landcruiser was bought off of craigslist too. I bought a 5speed transmission off of craigslist in Honolulu, it was exactly as advertised. Again if you cannot read the seller, it doesn't matter where or who you buy from, even a dealer will take you for a ride.

I make a fair living, but not enough to toss money into the hopper, I filled my home shop with craigslist and eBay tools at a substantial discount, the caveat is, you had best know your subject well, price and condition and be prepared to walk away if it doesn't smell right.

Yeah, I'm like that too. I agree, being able to read people, through their emails, telephone calls and in person, is huge.

[NYNick]

Here...they're close to you and have a good rep.

1986 Porsche Carrera 3.2 Targa "Well Maintained! Excellent Condition!"