How to get more from my 2.2, advices needed.

[farleyd]

Hi to all, ive just re-re-read Bruce Anderson’s book about modifying 911 engines. Id like to have your thoughts. My idea is to get more from my 2.2 which is now set up this way:
2.2T case
E-pistons
S-cams
Zeniths (may go to Webers, but $$$$$$$....)

I was wondering how far can i go with that engine? Changing P/Cs is an option i wont reject. Machining the heads can be an option too. The only thing i wouldnt do too eagerly is changing the stroke. I like early engines for their rawness.

Id consider the short-stroke 2.5.
What are the specs of such engine?
What do i need?

So what are your ideas about that? Thanks.

[Bobboloo]

The most bang for buck. 2.7RS P+C's. They can be had for $1650 from EBS. Warren has seen them as cheap as $1350. They'll give 2.5L with the short stroke. Of course the case spigots will have to be cut. ($250ish)


Are your carbs Zenith?

I don't know what is available for them in the way of rejetting. Maybe someone here does. If they're Weber then no problem.

Bobby

[911tmaster]

if its a T engine you won't be able to go bigger than 2.4L the case is too weak. i'm rebuilding my 2.2L T engine right now and i'm putting a 2.4L crank and rods with 2.2L E p/c's and e cams. i'm staying with the zeniths cuz webers are very expensive.motor meister has some perfromance parts for zeniths. but when you change the crank and rods and whatnot you run into alot of things and it can get very expensive. i'm $1000 over what i'd thought it would cost me and its still not done . you can't do much to these engines without spending alot. if you don't want to spend alot get a bursch muffler and leave the engine.if its a street car don't use "s" cams there to hot. the e cams are nice for the street. they have a good low to midrange power curve. and use 2.2L p/c's with the 2.4 crank you'll get 9.5:1 compression.(should run on premium) if you do this you'll get a nice quick street engine. if you have any questions about this setup email me justincoolguy@hotmail.com

[724doorE]

I'd say putting a good 2.4L (ie. 70.4mm stroke) crank and rods is your cheapest way to go to get displacement.

Just take all the possible changes into consideration, and decide which is best for you money wise and performance wise. You can sink a boatload of cash into a flat six if your not careful.

And if your going to change over to webers, I'd at least consider going the mfi route. There is even a guy on this board selliing his whole mfi system for a 2.2E

[steveW]

My idea would be to use 9.8 cr pistons from an 'S' with Solex cams. A 'T' cam can be cut to E spec, which is obviously cheaper. I've seen a motor here with 85mm 9.8 JE pistons, Solex cams and it runs well on Zeniths.

Of course the ideal would be 10.5 pistons, 906 cams, mechanical injection, in a lightweight (790kg) shell! or a full race 2.5 litre motor!!!!!

The easiest way of making a T faster is to add lightness. Remove all the junk etc - this is also the cheapest way.

[cegerer]

I've got a 2.2 converted to a 2.5, pretty much just as described in The Performance Handbook (RS P&C's, S distributor, Solex cams, Webers, machined heads, etc.). I think the Zeniths will present a problem with this conversion due to difficulty in re-jetting, etc. My motor was built 23 years ago, has over 60K on it and frequently sees the far side of 7000RPMs. There have been no problems. The motor is very peaky - one of the characteristics I really like about it. The power comes on very strong at about 5500 RPMs and pulls cleanly to 7300RPMs. Running in 2nd or 3rd gear (or 4th if you've got enough clear road ) at a steady 5500RPMs and then mashing the throttle all the way to 7300RPM is unbelievable fun! Oh, and the sound it makes - that's worth the price of admission right there!

[farleyd]

If i go ffor the 2.4 rods and crank (on my 2.2E), is there any clearance problems i should care about? Heads have to be machined?

Thanks!

[farleyd]

If i go ffor the 2.4 rods and crank (on my 2.2E), is there any clearance problems i should care about? Heads have to be machined?

Thanks!

[Bobboloo]

There is that possibility since you have S cams. If they were E cams then you would basically have a 2.4E motor (excluding intake). I would think there would be enough room to cut a deeper valve relief in the pistons but I don't know.

Swapping the for the 70.4 crank and rods is not an inexpensive option. You'll have to have the case prepped(alignbore), recondition the rods and replace the bearings. All this for 146cc. (a 2.4 is really 2.341). If the motor was already needing a complete rebuild then this might be a good option.

The 2.7 RS P+C's would probably be a cheaper upgrade. But as Bruce points out in his book the CR will be about 7.0:1. Then the S cams with the Zeniths will be difficult to get to idle properly but you could easily swap for T cams and probably get some money back. (I'll be glad to help you with that!)

It looks like your best bet in dollars for HP would be to sell your motor and by a good 3.0 and slap some Webers on it.

Bobby

[farleyd]

Thanks for that precise answer. I am not $-ready for a 3.0L. I want to have a bit more oumhp on my 2.2 and honestly, i like to early engines.

Here is what i have in terms of parts to fit in:
2.2 T-E-S cams, on set of each
2.2 T-E pistons, one set of each
2.4 crank and rod

You say that if i use E-cam there wouldnt be any clearance and no head machining needed?

- - -

As for the expensive move for only 146cc, i had an estimate of about 1K CAN$ of labour for that kinda swap. Add to this gaskets and rings, it would give me an estimated 180HP. Minus the $ i could have for my 2.2 crank/rods (counter-balanced) and S-cams. That would lower the cost a lot.

A 3.0L is what? 195-205HP??? Such an engine cost at least 4K CAN$.

As i said, not $-ready yet. Your thoughts?

[A Quiet Boom]

I thought I'd add my experience with Zeniths here. Yes they are difficult to get parts for but they can be made to run really well without too much effort. I recently replaced the venturis in mine that where on a 2.0 with 36mm venturis for use on a 3.0. I drilled my idle jets first to .55mm then after I needed a little more to .60mm once I liked the idle mixture I went up to 1.45 on the mains and eventually 1.5mm. I removed and blocked the enrichmnet circuit and plugged the vacuum ports. After that I went through the whole balancing routine as laid out in the Haynes manual. I also adjusted the throttle linkage and the accelerator pumps. The end result is better gas mileage than when they were on the 2.0 in a bad state of tune, super crisp throttle response and a ton of power. A rolling punch in second gear above 2500rpm will light up the 245 BFGs in back! I really think you could get them to work very nicely for your setup and in the process save a bunch of cash. If you'd really like a testament to how well these run, I was planning on installing SDS standalone EFI this winter, figuring the carbs would be a "stopgap" until then. Now I wouldn't dream of switching to EFI. Admittedly I did switch to MSD components for my ignition and timing needs but I think most of the drivability and response is due to the Zeniths.

[Bobboloo]

Well it sounds like a 2.4E (carbed) may be the way to go. Just make sure the shop doing your work checks the alignment of the bore for the crank on your case.

As far as horsepower goes the 2.4E puts out the same amount as a 2.7 CIS motor 165HP. It loses a little in the torque dept. though. A 3.0 CIS puts out about 180HP. You could build a 2.4S (carbed) motor but you would have to port the heads and from what I've heard most people prefer the E motor for the street anyway. They say it feels stronger. I've never driven an early S so I wouldn't know. (I'm going to have to change that!)

Quiet Boom that's really great what you did with the Zeniths. By the way if you need parts for them I know a guy that has a box full of used ones from a shop that went out of business.

Bobby

[farleyd]

Booby, i also run Zeniths. mainly because i know them. Id like the name of the guy with parts for them.

I am in the process of rejetting my 2.2T w/E-pistons and S-Cams. Ive reamed my main jets to 155, but i have a flat spot at 3k. If i use stock 115 main, then it lacks fuel after 4k. So i need more jets to try inbetween.

You mentionned 165HP for a carbed 2.4E. How do you estimate HP if i use 2.2E (more compression) pistons? Any clearance problems?

Thanks!

[724doorE]

2.4E hp, 165 DIN or 185 SAE there are threads on the differences between the two ratings. When comparing different engines hp ratings, make sure your talking apples vs apples....

You shouldn't have any clearence problems when using 2.2 E or S pistons with a 2.4 stroke. The heads are exactly the same in all respects. T's and E's have 32mm ports and both S's have 36mm ports. However, As any good engine builder will tell you, ALWAYS check piston to valve clearence when building an engine!

We argue all day long about wether carbs are better or MFI, If you've got Zeiniths and are happy with them, Great, use em.

My two cents from your pile of parts..

Id use athe 2.4 crank with 2.2E pistons. Stock 2.4 E CR was 8.0:1 and2.4S CR wa 8.5:1. 2.2E CR was 9.1 and put those with a 2.4 crank and you raise the effective CR by roughly half a point. So you then have say 9.5:1 CR. Use your S cams and port the heads to S spec (36mm) ports and you will effeectively have a 2.4 S engine which was rated at 190hp DIN and 210 SAE. You should even have a few more than that since you have a better CR. Now before you listen to the "drivability" issues with that, ask any 2.4S owner if he/she would rather have a 2.4E..... We all know the answer. From your pile, this will give you the most HP, If it were my pile, thats what I would do!

[724doorE]

And if you don't use the S cams, I might make you a deal on them!

[A Quiet Boom]

Bobboloo, I'd love to get some parts for them, maybe even a couple of pairs or rebuildable ones. Shoot me an email at rsr911@neo.rr.com.

farleyd, that flat spot at 3k could be to small an idle jet! I'd try .05mm larger as for your 155 mains yeah I'd say that's abit large considering it's larger than I'm running on a 3.0 unless your main air jets are larger than stock.

Now that I've got my valves adjusted I'm going to the dragstrip this coming weds. for test and tune with timing light and some spare jets in hand. I think I'm really close to ideal with my setup but I need some numbers to prove it. I went last week in a borrowed Mustang just to get my consistency back so my testing with the P-car will be more accurate.

[Bobboloo]

The guy with the Zenith parts is a guy named Bill Greaves. I'll give him a call in the morning to make sure he still has the parts. We met up at a shop that was going out of business. I bought up all the old MFI stuff and he got all the old Zenith stuff.

Bobby

[724doorE]

Bobbolo
Your the guy with the $1 pumps!

Do you have any core pumps, I might like to make you a deal on one for a project.

Thanks
Dennis

[tops911]

when people talk of the short stroke engines I don't under stand why it is never mentioned about the 92mm RS piston and cylinder sets. The compression is 10.3 but according to BA's book the short stroke will reduce the compression to about 9.3. I have a 2.2T engine and that would of been the route I would take. However there could be an issue with the piston and cylinders for this application that I'm unaware of. The 9.3 compression should work with the cams you want and there should not be any valve to piston issues. Does anyone have any experance with this conversion? Does it make sence to you more experinced engine builders.I was going to put the 2.2 in a 914 about 18 years ago(man now I feal old) but I joined the Army (read very poor for many years) and sold the car. Maybe in the future I can try to do it again.

[farleyd]

As far as my jets are concerned, here is whta i have:
60 idle (starts and idle like a champ)
160 main (estimated as i reamed them myself with a 3/64 drill)

Someoen can convert that into a readble measure? Like 140 155 etc?

Thanks!