While I'm in there, CIS edition

[RDM]

OK, so I've got the motor out and apart, the seats out and apart, the rear suspension out and apart (!). Who knew I'd have some questions?

Start with maintenance, end with disaster. Or opportunity

One of my three goals of this adventure is to seal up any potential problems with the CIS system. I'm not entirely sure of what that means, but here's what I've found:

The airbox-to-intake rubber is bulgy and not looking very good. The rubber is in Ok condition…



…but for a few bucks I can replace them. So I did.




Also for a few bucks I can replace the "coffin gasket. Once I took the weird six spring-wrapped screws out (anyone have an explanation for these?), I discovered that there was no gasket in place, only a thin smear of black RTV most of the way around. Putty knife, brake cleaner, fingernails, and time, and that cleaned up.



The gasket is adhesive on one side. I didn't figure it mattered which, so I put the sticky side down.

I also replaced the throttle body O-ring.

The thing I didn't succeed at was replacing the fuel injector seals and O-rings. Bentley says they just pull out. I wasn't able to. Any words of wisdom?

[Bob Kontak]

Originally Posted by RDM

The thing I didn't succeed at was replacing the fuel injector seals and O-rings. Bentley says they just pull out. I wasn't able to. Any words of wisdom?

Pull harder. My 81 o-rings back in 1996 were hard as rocks but they still pulled out ok.

There is nothing holding them in except the o-ring.

Put your ass into it and don't be afraid.

[allaircooled]

I gave a run down on how I did it here in my thread.

[boyt911sc]

Dru,

These are things you might consider to address:
1). Injector sleeves o-rings and fuel injector o-rings. Use the old injector sleeves unless damaged or cracked. The two (2) rubber o-rings do the sealing.
2). Pressure test the air box before and after installation while the engine is still out!!!!. Do not ignore this simple procedure because you might regret later.
3). Before putting the assembled engine back into the car, pressure test the CIS system one more time. It would take a minute to pressure test the system but would take days to find the problem later on. While it is out and accessible from all angles do the test.
4). Test run the pump for several seconds to test for fuel leak/s. You want to find any fuel leak now before you crank the engine for the initial start-up. I usually do it when the engine and transmission are ready for installation but you would need extra set of fuel lines to do it.
5). Test all six (6) injectors including the CSV for drips and spray pattern. Take note of the operating or opening pressures. Replace questionable injector/s.
6). The rest are routine procedures and keep safe.

Keep us posted.

Tony

[Neel]

Another avenue is to have RC Engineering blue print your injectors.. I have never had them do CIS injectors, but I've had them do this with my Turbo Fords and I was pleased with the results.. They also give you a before and after flow rates which I found quite interesting... Don't remember the pricing, but I thought it as well worth the cost..

[RDM]

Originally Posted by Bob Kontak

Pull harder. .

No problem, but against what?The spider is sitting on a table. Do I wait until it's bolted up? Tug-of-war with my kids? Very large screwdriver prying against some unreplaceable part?

Next thing I noticed was cracking on the fuel lines, but I think these are just insulating sleeves. Are they must fix, may fix, or ignore items?







One sign that someone has been here before:



Since this is before the metering plate, I don't think it has an impact on performance, but still.

[timmy2]

The cracking on the lines is just the protective rubber outer cover. Peel it back if you want to inspect the lines.

Use a couple of wrenches to set up a fulcrum to pop the injectors out of the runners. Fat wide one that doesn't make contact on the base and a skinny one fitting between the nut and injector shaft with a socket in between as a spacer/fulcrum point. Should pop right out.

I just read a post where the spring bolts are meant to be tightened to where they stop and then turned out one turn.

[RDM]

Originally Posted by allaircooled

I gave a run down on how I did it here in my thread.

I read the whole thing. Thanks. And the source posting. And... it's a wonder I get anything done.

Originally Posted by timmy2

The cracking on the lines is just the protective rubber outer cover. Peel it back if you want to inspect the lines.

Use a couple of wrenches to set up a fulcrum to pop the injectors out of the runners. Fat wide one that doesn't make contact on the base and a skinny one fitting between the nut and injector shaft with a socket in between as a spacer/fulcrum point. Should pop right out.

I just read a post where the spring bolts are meant to be tightened to where they stop and then turned out one turn.

Thanks for the pry wrench solution. I will try that.

Regarding the spring screws, they all came out after precisely five turns. The "all the way in, then out 1 turn" will get me there. Any idea why this is set up the way it is? Is it the factory version of a pop-off valve?

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Dru,

These are things you might consider to address:
1). Injector sleeves o-rings and fuel injector o-rings. Use the old injector sleeves unless damaged or cracked. The two (2) rubber o-rings do the sealing.
2). Pressure test the air box before and after installation while the engine is still out!!!!. Do not ignore this simple procedure because you might regret later.
3). Before putting the assembled engine back into the car, pressure test the CIS system one more time. It would take a minute to pressure test the system but would take days to find the problem later on. While it is out and accessible from all angles do the test.
4). Test run the pump for several seconds to test for fuel leak/s. You want to find any fuel leak now before you crank the engine for the initial start-up. I usually do it when the engine and transmission are ready for installation but you would need extra set of fuel lines to do it.
5). Test all six (6) injectors including the CSV for drips and spray pattern. Take note of the operating or opening pressures. Replace questionable injector/s.
6). The rest are routine procedures and keep safe.

Keep us posted.

Tony

1) Will do. I already have the seals and rings.

2) How do you recommend I pressure test on the bench? With the injectors out, I suppose it's possible to plug the ends of the intake runners. I found some 43 mm stoppers in the Chem room across the hall, but I think they'll probably be too big (38mm ports, right?). Once it's mounted, I can do the vacuum cleaner test.

Or should I do a full disassembly? Now that I think about it, I do have a spare CIS setup in a box in the workroom....

3) I assume you mean pressure testing the air side.

5) Injector testing comes after reinstallation, right? If not, how?

Thank you all. I couldn't do this without you.

[boyt911sc]

Dru,

1). Test the air box for leaks or crack including the pop off valve. If it is good, install it on the engine.
2). The second pressure test is when everything is bolted together and engine is ready for installation into the engine bay. Pressure test using the left side of the air box for the brake vacuum hose. No air leak, engine ready for installation.
3). Fuel injector test is done by supplying fuel to individual injector under controlled condition. A low supply pressure at first and gradually crank the pressure up to 35 psi untill the injector starts to spray a uniform mist pattern not jet like stream of fuel. The acceptable range is 36 psi to 55 psi. (too broad). I grouped these injectors into: 36 - 42, 43 49, and 50 - 55 psi. over 56 psi go to the dumpster.
4). Don't forget to do a fuel pressure test before actual start-up. You don't want to find a fuel leak with the engine running hot.
5). Avoid tweaking the mixture setting during a start-up. That's the last thing you want to play around.
6). Do you have an inductive timing light? I like to use it for my initial start-up.

You are doing great. When do you expect to have the engine installed in the car for a start-up? Keep us posted.

Tony

[onboost]

Originally Posted by Neel

Another avenue is to have RC Engineering blue print your injectors.. I have never had them do CIS injectors, but I've had them do this with my Turbo Fords and I was pleased with the results.. They also give you a before and after flow rates which I found quite interesting... Don't remember the pricing, but I thought it as well worth the cost..

That's because your Turbo Ford injectors are electronic.. not much you can do with a mechanical/CIS injector other than clean, and check for flow, and replace.

[sammyg2]

First time I pulled injectors they were stuck pretty good. I has an old bicycle tire iron and it worked perfectly as a tiny pry bar, except on some it pulled out the composite sleeve with the injector and I found two of the sleeves were cracked.
Replaced all of it.
A tiny heel bar would work too. Anything to get some leverage. I heard someone made a puller that screwed onto the injector, that'd be sweet.

[RDM]

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

Dru,

1). Test the air box for leaks or crack including the pop off valve. If it is good, install it on the engine.

Tony,

Does this require disassembly of the system, or something else? I'm feeling stupid; I don't know how this is done.

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

2). The second pressure test is when everything is bolted together and engine is ready for installation into the engine bay. Pressure test using the left side of the air box for the brake vacuum hose. No air leak, engine ready for installation.

This I understand, I think. Vacuum cleaner method?

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

3). Fuel injector test is done by supplying fuel to individual injector under controlled condition. A low supply pressure at first and gradually crank the pressure up to 35 psi untill the injector starts to spray a uniform mist pattern not jet like stream of fuel. The acceptable range is 36 psi to 55 psi. (too broad). I grouped these injectors into: 36 - 42, 43 49, and 50 - 55 psi. over 56 psi go to the dumpster.

Do you have a rig for this? An adjustable pressure supply setup with a pressure meter is not sitting in my basement, unfortunately. Is there an alternate method?

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

4). Don't forget to do a fuel pressure test before actual start-up. You don't want to find a fuel leak with the engine running hot.
5). Avoid tweaking the mixture setting during a start-up. That's the last thing you want to play around.
6). Do you have an inductive timing light? I like to use it for my initial start-up.

Tony

Yes, yes, and yes, though my timing light isn't adjustable for advance. I'd better scribe some lines on that crank pulley while I still can.

Originally Posted by boyt911sc

You are doing great. When do you expect to have the engine installed in the car for a start-up? Keep us posted.

Tony

I expect the engine will be in within the week or so, though I will still be waiting for suspension components (Elephant, plus shock rebuild from Bilstien) and my driver's seat from the leather man before the car is drivable. The weather has been astonishingly good while my car has sat inside the cold garage on jackstands.

[RDM]

So, progress made on the CIS front. First of all, I followed Dennis' advice about pulling the injectors, with a slight modification. Large screwdriver as a foundation to push against, 12mm wrench as my lever, and they pop right out.



First concern: shouldn't my injectors be straight?



Second concern, the PET shows an o-ring here (and I have a little baggie full)



But I don't see a way to retain one here.



The sleeves also wiggle the tiniest little bit. Normal, or replace?

Here's where the other o-ring goes. Finally something I understand. What lube before installing? Motor oil, silicone grease, lard?

[timmy2]

The sleeves have to come out to replace the O-rings. There are 3 small dimples that need to be removed so they can slide up and out. (dremel) Then insert the new o-rings and use a punch device to re-secure the sleeves in place.
It will be obvious once you get the first one out.
I use Dow 111 on the orings.

[The cap'n]

The picture of the insulator seal is deceptive. It goes farther down the insert. Replace the inserts, they're old, they're plastic, and they're cheap. A little spit or motor oil on the o-ring as you push the insulator into place works wonders. If your engine has an O2 sensor, DO NOT use ANY silicone spray or conventional RTV anywhere near the intake system! The offgassing will kill the O2 sensor.

The Cap'n