87 Targa 3.2 clutch and engine questions

[FLYONWALL9]

I've been doing some reading here on the board but my guess is the way I am searching for my answer is incorrect.

I dropped the engine in my 87 targa (stock 3.2) to fix some oil leaks and do some general cleaning up. I replaced the 3 o rings on the engine oil cooler / heat exchanger, along with those on top of the engine. If you can think of others that I should tend to please advise. I have also replaced the oil return tubes.

I separated the engine and transmission to check the state of the clutch and rear main seal. The seal looks great, though I am going to replace it. I noticed the master cylinder looks (not much dirt at all) also, it looks like it has had the fork upgrade, though I am a bit confused about that. My guess is the past owner did the upgrade along with a master cyl. at the same time. I did see pry marks that looked new just below the starter on the engine to bell housing.

My question is what disc can I / should I use in place of the rubber centered one? I really don't want to drain the bank and by the looks of things the pressure plate is in great shape along with the flywheel. No scars and very little heat haze. I plan to replace the throw out bearing, along with the bearing on the flywheel. One of the two had a noise at low rpm going up slight incline (driveway or speed humps). Least that is what I think the noise was.

So, is it possible for me to replace that disc with spring type and keep the pressure plate I currently have? I should note that the plate was in good shape and had not worn to the rivets, though, 1/16th from doing so.

Thanks for your time,
Scott

[Chuck.H]

I've had spring center clutches in my '89 since the 40k mile mark or so, after my rubber-centered one exploded on a spirited 1-2 upshift.

You can always just replace just the clutch disk if that's all that's worn, but you take the slight chance of having chatter. I've never fully understood chatter; I've seen it occur on great looking flywheels and PP's, but disappears when you replace both of them with new parts.

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 360k miles

[Discseven]

Scott,

I recently did a 3.2 reseal and split engine and trans on my '85. You can cruise this to see what was done and the challenges encountered:

Part 1 of 2 - Replacing Oil Seals, Gaskets, and Leaky Plumbing in ’85 3.2

Part 2 of 2 - Replacing Oil Seals, Gaskets, and Leaky Plumbing in ’85 3.2

[highwaystar]

Just finished a clutch on my 88, it needed to be done because the snap ring on the TO bearing popped off. I replaced the entire clutch and did a few other things (2 wire head temp sensor, o2 sensor, bronze bushings for throttle bell crank, rear seal). After I reinstalled and started it I had fuel gushing from the rubber injector lines! Scared the hell out of me. Turns out cracking of the rubber is common in these cars, I'm just glad it happened then and not while I was on the road. I replaced the lines with braided stainless lines but it would have been MUCH easier with the engine out. Check your lines for cracking very carefully before you reinstall, do a search on "Carrera fuel lines" for info.

[Jcslocum]

Fuel line are a MUST if you don't know the age. You might be able to see the date stamp on the hose if you clean them up. Triangle of death needs to be refreshed. How can you tell the the clutch shaft has been updated?? Are there still needle bearings in the fork? Was the shaft easy to get out?

You can use a standard spring type disc instead of the rubber. Much better design and life without the worry of it blowing up when you are on the road.

The new throw-out bearing will also need a new guide tube to hold it.

Replace the front seal on the trans.

Replace the clutch slave if it's original. It's a BUGGER to do when in the car.

Now the slippery slope can start.....

Repack the CV joints
Replace rear rubber brake lines, if original
Rear suspension bushings on the trailing arms
Engine compartment insulation
Shifter coupler upgrade
Rear Shocks

These are all easier to do with the engine out.

[rusnak]

If you need to replace the sound pad, brake lines, or suspension bushings, then now is the time. You should replace the oil pressure switch, and don't forget the special high temp grease on the transmission input shaft splines.

[highwaystar]

Yup, lots of "while your in there's" during a clutch job. Don't forget new plugs and adjusting the valves too.
I second replacing the slave cylinder when the engine is out. I thought mine was good but found out after it needed replacing. Not a fun job.

[rusnak]

If it turns out that your old flywheel can't be re-used, then make sure that the reference sensor pin is not stainless steel (non-ferrous). Also, use new flywheel bolts, do not re-use old ones.

[FLYONWALL9]

Thanks for the reply guys. This is definitely a project I need all the help I can get so I don't screw something up, or miss something.....

Having had an Epidural today (hope this one last at least , I figure this would be a perfect day to make out my parts list and do some shopping.

Which clutch disc would be the one for me to look at that isn't CRAZY expensive?


The mandatory 1st time engine drop photo.






This one shows how close I was to touching the rivet, and the state of the rubber hub, and what makes me thing I should be able to use the pressure plate and flywheel after they are resurfaced?????






The surface of both the flywheel and pressure plate now looks way worse than it did when I first took it apart. Not sure if I should preserve it with oil or something prior to having it resurfaced? Also, shows the model number of what I have. Not all that sure why it has writing on it?




HOW DOES THIS LOOK?






Because this is my first P-car and really the first motor I have replaced so many parts on. I would like to post a list of the parts I have replaced already. Make a list of the ones I hope to change for you guy's to review to see if I am missing something before I go back in with it..... It was VERY hard for me to get to this point and if I had to do it again (because I missed some part) I'm afraid it may take a great deal of time for me to do it twice. I am only able to work a couple hours at a time then I have to recover for a few days before going back at it.

Thanks again for your time and advise,
Scott

[kodioneill]

The writing on the flywheel looks like it's been resurfaced ten thousandths.

[wildcat077]

Not sure you can resurface a G50 flywheel without causing some ill effects ... better look into that before you consider it.
As far as clutch replacements go,don't cheap out,replace everything at the same time.
Shop around,prices vary greatly !

Cheers
Phil

[ruwoodbury]

I went with a complete lightweight pressure plate, flywheel and clutch from Patrick Motorsports when I replaced mine last year. I love the result--freer revving engine--but it was kinda' spendy. I thought you always need to resurface or replace your flywheel with a new clutch and it's nearly always a good idea to replace the throw-out bearing and pressure plate.
What color is your car exactly?

[FLYONWALL9]

I've been working on my shopping list I hope to fill by the
end of the week. Any of you that are keeping up with this
could you look over and perhaps add to what I have if needed.

SPARKPLUG WIRES
SPARKPLUGS
DRAIN PLUG CRUSH WASHERS
CRANK CASE BREATHER GASKET
REVERSE LIGHT TRANS SWITCH
VALVE COVER GASKETS UPPER/LOWER
OIL PRESSURE SWITCH
OIL COOLER THERMOSTAT O RING
O RINGS FOR ENGINE OIL COOLER
FUEL FILTER
OIL RETURN TUBE
CRANK CASE OIL LINE FROM TOP OF THE ENGINE TO OIL TANK
AIR FILTER
OIL FILTER
OIL
TRANS OIL

questionable parts
intake manifold gaskets
throttle body 90deg (NOT CRACKED)
vacuum lines on fuel pressure regulator (OIL SOAKED
fuel lines
THERMOSWITCH (should I replace, or just replace new crush washer?)
distributor o-ring (not leaking)
MAIN SHAFT SEAL FRONT and REAR (BOTH NOT LEAKING) WILL REPLACE

[Chuck.H]

Just my 2 cents (and often worth less)... I'm not a big fan of replacing parts that are working fine - I like to leave fully working things alone and just service what is broken. That doesn't apply to o-rings, I like to change those out as they harden with age. But the reverse switch, oil pressure switch etc - are they non-functional or are you just replacing them because the engine is out?

If it was me, I'd leave them in place and not take the risk of some old sealant or crud falling inside the engine by removing them.

Chuck.H
'89 TurboLookTarga, 361k miles

[Jesse16]

I'm a bit more with Chuck on this. I'm no longer "reluctant or afraid" of engine removal knowing I can do it over a weekend if required. That said, I replaced my "exploded" rubber center disc with a new "lightly used" one I got from a Pelican and everything works great. (I was able to limp home when mine failed, not breaking completely in two) Check everything the best you can and replace if you can afford to. It is very nice to address leaks and have a clean garage floor ! I've put another 25K and 6 DE's on my replacement disc so far. Doing the valves with the engine out seems like a great opportunity.

[KTL]

Just my guess but I think the rubber clutch disc made a reappearance in the G50 because it's a noisy trans in terms of main bearings? I say that because the 915 had a rubber disc in the SC cars for a while and then it went away before the 3.2 Carrera was introduced.

That said, the rubber disc has been around for a long time. The 930 cars used it from 78-88.

But I will 100% agree that the spring-center disc is tried and true. The G50 is sorta noisy any way you slice it, rubber disc or not. So might as well go with the spring setup. The factory direct replacement is the 930 disc from 75-77. Kinda expensive though. A good alternative is a clutchnet disc. Made in the USA too.

Don't sweat resurfacing your flywheel. It can be done as long as it's a proper double cut that cuts the contact surface and the pressure plate mounting surface (note how the flywheel is stepped). The stigma that's been attached to G50 flywheels is because of the rubber clutch disc. If you were to cut the flywheel, that brings the clutch housing closer to the top of the considerably tall rubber damper on the disc. But if you use a spring disc, it becomes a non-issue because the spring disc has nowhere near the damper height of the rubber monster.

By the looks of the pressure plate and flywheel contact surface, the clutch has seen a decent amount of slippage & heat. Still should be able to clean it up no problem. Could also resurface the clutch contact surface if desired. Just a teeny amount is all it needs to clean up the surface for a new disc to grab on.

The clutch is dated 1993 so it's pretty old. But these Sachs clutches are near bulletproof. I wouldn't hesitate to reuse one. Just be sure to take a look at the drive straps around the periphery of the clutch. Those transmit alot of load and can crack where riveted to the clutch housing and contact foot/disc. They usually crack from people doing too many 1st gear hard launches- like side-stepping the clutch from a dead stop.

That clutch disc you had wasn't worn as bad as you think. The rivet depth is quite shallow on a new disc.

Here's my take for what its worth on your list

SPARKPLUG WIRES- check resistance with ohmmeter. If all check out same, no need to replace.
SPARKPLUGS- good idea with engine out. W/engine in, it's sometimes a test of your back strength
DRAIN PLUG CRUSH WASHERS- OK
CRANK CASE BREATHER GASKET- if it ain't leaking, leave it be. People notoriously think this is a leaker when it's actually the hose itself.
REVERSE LIGHT TRANS SWITCH- if your lights work and it doesn't leak, leave it be.
VALVE COVER GASKETS UPPER/LOWER- OK
OIL PRESSURE SWITCH- known leaker, good idea to replace. Put some RTV around the crimp between metal and plastic for some added insurance.
OIL COOLER THERMOSTAT O RING- easy fix. Go for it.
O RINGS FOR ENGINE OIL COOLER- good idea, as these are very difficult to replace with engine installed.
FUEL FILTER- good maintenance item.
OIL RETURN TUBE- expandables are hard to expand when new. Here's a trick Oil Return Tube Replacement Tip
CRANK CASE OIL LINE FROM TOP OF THE ENGINE TO OIL TANK- if hardened, DEFINITELY
AIR FILTER- OK
OIL FILTER- absolutely
OIL- yep
TRANS OIL- if unknown, absolutely. Any good GL-5 oil will do. I like regular store bought Valvoline in the white bottle.

questionable parts
intake manifold gaskets- known leakers. Best to remove insulators and level them with sandpaper on glass before going thru trouble of replacing gaskets.
throttle body 90deg (NOT CRACKED)- if OK leave it be.
vacuum lines on fuel pressure regulator (OIL SOAKED)- easy to replace as they are foam-like push-on hose
fuel lines- take guys' advice above. The y-hose that runs under the intake is a notorious leaker. Same goes for the line that bridges the fuel rails between fuel damper and pressure regulator. There is also a tiny piece below the driver side of the damper/regulator (can't recall which is which) that has a TIGHT bend in it. This line is notorious for cracking
THERMOSWITCH (should I replace, or just replace new crush washer?) leave alone. This thing is never a problem.
distributor o-ring (not leaking)- leave alone. This thing is never a problem.
MAIN SHAFT SEAL FRONT and REAR (BOTH NOT LEAKING) WILL REPLACE- if not leaking, leave those sleeping dogs lie. Often people curse themselves for replacing them because they created a leak that wasn't there before.

Glad that low usage disc worked out good for you Jesse. I knew it was a good spare for someone to take advantage of!

[FLYONWALL9]

Thank you guys for taking the time to help me out...

Most of what I am fixing or replacing is or has either been leaking or broken like the reverse switch. The Tstat was leaking so I will just replace its washer. I will do as you suggest and measure the spark plugs to see what kind of shape they are in.

Does anyone have a photo of the G50 trans? One photo I did not take was the one side I took two brackets off and am not sure of the orientation. Also while cleaning I noticed a place for a sensor that I do no recall ever removing. The hole is near the CV joint coupling. What it has is a hole and an adjacent screw hole. I'm rather confused by this because to my knowledge neither I nor the guy helping me removed anything from this spot. I can take a photo for ref if needed.

To confirm..
The clutch disc that I need to look for that would replace the rubber hub one is from

KTL
930 disc from 75-77
Who would you recommend me sending my flywheel and pressure plate to have them
resurfaced?

Thanks much for your time and efforts,
Scott

[FLYONWALL9]

The photo above of the side of the engine I can tell how the one bracket goes
with the white looking plug. BUT, because the heater hose in in place I am
unable to see what would go in the described hole.

What has me worried is this could have been open for a very long time and I
may should flush out the inside of the trans. I do have access to a trans flush
machine. It is however for automatic trans. but I should be able to use our type
of oil rather than auto trans fluid.

May get flamed for this one.....
Which brings me to a question which if one searches you can turn up TONS of
pages of info. I would rather skip all that and just ask what you guys think. What
kind of oil do ya'll like running best? In my 90 Montero with 320k miles I have
always put Lucus Transmission fluid and have ZERO problems. Now, if this has
helped the trans in this high mileage truck I don't know. But it was used by my
father who I got the truck from in order to tow my boat and for a daily driver. He
also always put a bottle of the oil additive when an oil change was done every
5k miles. It has only had normal maintenance done, timing belt, plugs, valve adj.
and so on. I have read where many owners of cars with this same engine have
had valve guide issues, and various other leaks aside from valve cover gasket.
This one has had NO issues at all, I've taken several trips to the Keys in it
(about 900 miles one way) and wouldn't hesitate one second jumping in it
and drive to Alaska. Have any of you had personal exp with this stuff in a
Porsche? I just cant help but think having had such good luck with it in my
truck it may have the same results in my car. I've read some threads about
using it in our cars some swear by it while others are of the hocus pocus
view.

[Jcslocum]

Originally Posted by FLYONWALL9

May get flamed for this one.....
Which brings me to a question which if one searches you can turn up TONS of
pages of info. I would rather skip all that and just ask what you guys think. What
kind of oil do ya'll like running best? In my 90 Montero with 320k miles I have
always put Lucus Transmission fluid and have ZERO problems. Now, if this has
helped the trans in this high mileage truck I don't know. But it was used by my
father who I got the truck from in order to tow my boat and for a daily driver. He
also always put a bottle of the oil additive when an oil change was done every
5k miles. It has only had normal maintenance done, timing belt, plugs, valve adj.
and so on. I have read where many owners of cars with this same engine have
had valve guide issues, and various other leaks aside from valve cover gasket.
This one has had NO issues at all, I've taken several trips to the Keys in it
(about 900 miles one way) and wouldn't hesitate one second jumping in it
and drive to Alaska. Have any of you had personal exp with this stuff in a
Porsche? I just cant help but think having had such good luck with it in my
truck it may have the same results in my car. I've read some threads about
using it in our cars some swear by it while others are of the hocus pocus
view.

It's you car, you should put in what makes you happy. I doubt any harm can come from running the Lucas products and some swear by them. Just make sure to run the right spec oil in the trans.

[Smoove1010]

Originally Posted by FLYONWALL9

The photo above of the side of the engine I can tell how the one bracket goes
with the white looking plug. BUT, because the heater hose in in place I am
unable to see what would go in the described hole.

What has me worried is this could have been open for a very long time and I
may should flush out the inside of the trans. I do have access to a trans flush
machine. It is however for automatic trans. but I should be able to use our type
of oil rather than auto trans fluid.

Can you send a pic of the hole you're describing? There's a hole adjacent to the CV flange for the speedo sensor, but in the pic it looks like the sensor is in place.

If you browse posts for engine drops you find lots of pictures of dropped drive-trains that you can use for comparison.
GK