whats the real cost to convert to pmo's

[Humdaddy]

Well I only have so much money and trying to decide which project to do this winter. Big red's, pmo's, or iroc bumpers. Car is a 74 with 3.0. Big reds are really at the top of the budget due to new wheels so I am leaning to the pmo's. Whats the advantage (HP) and whats involved. Do I have to change ignition? I know some people are going with crank fire. Can I get by with the cis for a year? I don't want to go the msd route with so many people having trouble with new units these days. Also which fuel pump? Also is it easier to drop the motor?

[mreid]

Buy the entire set up ($4,400?) and that's it. Use your existing fuel pump and ignition.

[Dueller]

PMO's for go
Bumpers for show
Big Reds for whoa

You choose
Lol

[Steve@Rennsport]

Originally Posted by mreid

Buy the entire set up ($4,400?) and that's it. Use your existing fuel pump and ignition.

Yep,..thats all.

I'd recommend having your distributor recurved (improves acceleration & throttle response) since the difference is quite noticeable.

[Tidybuoy]

Be prepared for "while your in there" expenses.

I'm in the process of installing PMO ITB Injection and Electromotive Ignition.

The "while your in there" expenses have added a considerable amount. Some were necessary and some were done because this it the time to do it:
1) Moved fuel pump to the front (at rear on '74). Required new fuel lines at the front, required new tunnel lines because cars with fuel pump at rear do not have high-pressure lines thru tunnel (at least not '74).
2) Replacing clutch because the only time to do this is when the engine is out.
3) powder coated engine tin. This was not necessary but it was going to need to be painted. With the adding of PMO's and the super cool look, I want the rest to look good too. When it was all done, I went back and ceramic coated the valve covers and fan shroud.
4) re-painted engine shroud. Again, not necessary but same reasoning.
5) Adjusted valves so valve cover gaskets needed.
6) Broke some exhaust studs in the process. Required me to buy $100 Time Sert kit + $100 drill guide tool for drilling out old studs. I'm glad I did this as the prior owner had installed extra long studs and used 1" spacers to compensate. These spacers crushed a little and was causing leaks.
7) Many new gaskets, including exhaust, and other seals and rings to fix leaks.
8) Replaced rear trailing arm bushings - the only time to do this is with the engine out. Used ER Sport Rubber.
9) Replaced all 4 motor/Trans mounts.
10) Replaced reverse light switch - $40 but needed it, mine was broken and leaking.
11) Replaced trans input shaft seal, speedo input seal, engine crank & pulley seal
12) Vacuum lines - everything changes with PMO
13) Engine sound pad. Time to do it is now.
14) Numerous grommets, wire sheathing, aluminum bracketing, etc... for mounting the Electromotive and routing all the wires (there's a whole lot).
15) Added oxygen sensor bung to SSI's. The welding only cost me a 12 pack but the fitting and plug were around $30-40. You need the plug as it is installed during the welding to prevent deforming.
16) Drill bits and taps. If going with Electromotive sequential, you have to tap a hole in the camshaft end. You also have to tap a hole for the head temp sensor.
17) Replaced my engine harness. When I removed the engine shroud, I discovered the wiring to be very brittle. I could have kept using it but decided I want trouble free going forward. I also had Dennis aka: "Timmy2" make me a harness for the new injectors. I could have done this myself but since he makes such nice stuff, I thought I would have him do the injectors in braided sheathing that looks really good.
18) Oil & Filters. With all the work, I drained the engine oil and will have to replace. With all the drilling and tapping, I plan on changing the oil shortly after the initial startup just to be sure it's all clean.
19) Fuel Line for engine. PMO does not come with the fuel lines that go from bank to bank. I used braided nylon from fuel pro. I also had to buy fittings from Earls and those fitting are very expensive $35 per area on my car (that's 4 areas on engine, 2 at fuel filter, and 2 at fuel pressure regulator).
20) Replaced heater hoses with good hose from Aircraft Spruce. The paper/Aluminum had seen its days and needed replacing. removing it for this project virtually destroyed it completely.
21) Tools. During this project, I bought special cone drill bits that are for drilling holes $35 each, bought a dremmel tool to assist with drilling out exhaust studs that were not coming out with easy outs. In fact, I bought the easy outs and then snapped one off in the exhaust stud so I had to Dremel out the easy-out. I am totally impressed that I did it without screwing it all up.
22) New exhaust barrel nuts, regular locking copper nuts, and jet-nuts for the PMO's. The nuts for the PMO's are great if you can find a tool that can torque them down in a tight space. Jet nuts work better as they have a 10mm head.
23) I went thru endless cleaners including several cans of oven cleaner, carb cleaner, brake cleaner, simple green, etc.. Not only does it take tons of cleaner to get the engine and trans spotless, I have also washed the garage floor about 10 times. I've also gone thru about 10 rolls of shop paper towels.
24) Plug wires. Stock wires wont fit the coils if you are going with electromotive.

Geeze, reading this list is giving me a headache. I need to start a spreadsheet to analyze the true cost of this project. But you can see, that you cannot plan on the basic cost of the kit which is expensive in itself. All the extras add up.

To answer your question about changing the ignition...if you are thinking PMO Injection, you need something to run it. Mega squirt, Bitz, Electromotive all will work. I went with Electromotive and that required a new pulley with trigger wheel and sensor - that's another $350

To sum it all up, it will cost quite a bit more than the initial kit depending on your needs and "wants". I'm glad I did it but I am looking forward to not spending any more $$ for a while. Two weeks to initial start up

[mreid]

Ignore all the above as none of it has to do with PMO carbs. All of that needed to be done regardless of converting to carbs. As for number 19, mine did. I do agree with the dizzy recurve.

[Humdaddy]

thank you Tidyboy, thats exactly the slippery slope that concerns me. And mine is going to include a transmission rebuild. I've admired your car and your post for some time now. I think you got that silver midyear around the same time as I got mine. That engine is absolutely beautiful. Nice work. Barrel nuts hate em. Believe it or not thats the start of my insanity,they are tightened beyond the stud and I can't get a bite. This annoys so much I'm thinking of ditching the SSI's for headers and losing the heat and AC. This would piss my mechanic off as he's the one who installed the AC for the cars previous owner. He is also the one that painted the car. No AC and I can set the valve lash myself. My fuel pump is already up front so maybe the through tunnel stuff hasn't been done already. The engine has been stepped on already, ported and polished heads, recurved distributor. I don't know what cam is in there but this car is healthier than my old 86 SC. Now if I could get the transmission up to par. Oh this is a slippery one.

[gamin]

Contact Richard Parr at PMO. Wonderful guy full of knowledge. He will jet and venturi etc your carbs specifically for your setup. He sells everything you need. Once you decide on cams and distributor give him a call. By the way, carbs require a low pressure fuel pump and something to regulate that pressure. It's all really pretty simple.

[Humdaddy]

thanks mreid and steve at rennsport. So I can put the PMO's on now and catch up later. How much h.p. should I see. Ultimately I am going to do them all. I just don't have six figures to throw into it at once. I plan on doing some de next year so the tranny is a must this year.

[Tidybuoy]

Originally Posted by Humdaddy

Barrel nuts hate em. Believe it or not thats the start of my insanity,they are tightened beyond the stud and I can't get a bite. This annoys so much I'm thinking of ditching the SSI's for headers and losing the heat and AC.

My fuel pump is already up front so maybe the through tunnel stuff hasn't been done already.

I didn't have any problems with the barrel nuts, just the regular hex nuts. but, if you get yours off, then no reason to ditch the SSI's as brand new nuts are the easy part. Just use some thread anti-seize paste for future removal ease.

I think that '74 was the only year that had a low pressure plastic line in the tunnel. I think the earlier cars had metal. In my case, I had Boxter GT make new lines and when I was installing, I discovered that the prior owner had replaced my tunnel lines with metal (one of them anyway). But, I'm happy to know that I have new fuel lines that will last a long time, maybe forever.

Thanks for the compliments...now lets just hope it starts.

[rennch]

Looks like the same path I'm going down...

[Eagledriver]

Originally Posted by Humdaddy

. How much h.p. should I see.

Even with non euro Pistons and stock exhaust you should see 220HP or more. You will have to rev to 6800 to get that power. The carbs breath so much better that the torque doesn't drop off.

-Andy

[911pcars]

Originally Posted by Eagledriver

Even with non euro Pistons and stock exhaust you should see 220HP or more. You will have to rev to 6800 to get that power. The carbs breath so much better that the torque doesn't drop off.

-Andy

220? Stock USA is what, 180-203? That means +20-40 HP by adding PMOs. Don't think so unless humdaddy slides down the slope with upgraded cams and higher compression pistons to compliment the improved heads.

If using the stock CIS fuel pump, will also need a fuel pressure regulator and some inline filters and preferred fuel hose/connectors/fittings. Also, air filters if that wasn't mentioned yet. Are the PMO or equivalent intake manifolds and throttle linkage already included in the initial estimate?

Sherwood

[sundevil64]

Originally Posted by mreid

Ignore all the above as none of it has to do with PMO carbs. All of that needed to be done regardless of converting to carbs. As for number 19, mine did. I do agree with the dizzy recurve.

You could also put in a 123 Distributor. They run about $600 they simple and work well.

[Locker537]

Swapping to carbs is good on power and for many has that cool factor.

I don't see the value in upgrading to big red brakes unless you are surpassing the braking capability of late carrera calipers, which would likely imply you've got a lot more power (3.6? More?).

IROC bumpers, I do like the look, but I would only do it if I needed a bigger front mount oil cooler due to heat issues.

[911 SLANT]

I did this upgrade with my 2.8 with 9:5.1 J&E pistons and Mod S cams. I went with 46mn PMOs. I also had my 2.7 distributor re-curved. Faucet low pressure fuel pump. Pulls hard. Be expecting to spend some time with jetting. I got rid of the SSIs and went with M&K RSR headers and a 997 GT3 muffler. Might be hard to find PMOs now thought. I paid 4500.00 for used 100 miles on carbs from Rothsport. Recurve, jets gaskets, fuel pump, lines, carb tuning. Roughly around 6,000.00

[3rd_gear_Ted]

How much dyno time is needed for tuning????
Nothing for Porsche air cooled performance mod is plug & play.

[QueWhy]

Originally Posted by sundevil64

You could also put in a 123 Distributor. They run about $600 they simple and work well.

Or go with the CDI+ from Classic Retrofit. Looks 100% stock but gives the option of completely customizable ignition, multi spark, shift light, rpm limit, re-calibrating the tach, etc. For marginally more money it seems like a vastly superior option to the 123 dizzy.

[QueWhy]

Originally Posted by 911 SLANT

I did this upgrade with my 2.8 with 9:5.1 J&E pistons and Mod S cams. I went with 46mn PMOs. I also had my 2.7 distributor re-curved. Faucet low pressure fuel pump. Pulls hard. Be expecting to spend some time with jetting. I got rid of the SSIs and went with M&K RSR headers and a 997 GT3 muffler. Might be hard to find PMOs now thought. I paid 4500.00 for used 100 miles on carbs from Rothsport. Recurve, jets gaskets, fuel pump, lines, carb tuning. Roughly around 6,000.00

I was all set to switch to a set of PMO’s but it no longer seems like a good value proposition. If I go with carbs it’s going to be a cheap set of Zeniths otherwise if I’m going to spend big money it’ll be MFI.

[mepstein]

Plus PMO is for sale and can't find a buyer. What kind of support will that mean in the future.