Window Frame Adjustment

[azhodge]

I noticed a gap on the right door window frame on my 88 Carrera. compared to the other side it seems to need to come up about 3/16 and also move in some. It has been that way since a repair many years ago. I have little idea on how to adjust this. I see the rubber plugs on the door jam on front and back. Do I just loosen them and move it? Should the window be up when I move it? will that take care of up and down adjustments as well as in and out? I have the door panel off for maintenance. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Discseven]

AZ... window position (height & tilt) relative to car is a simple adjustment if you know what to do. You'll have to take door panel off to access inside of door. If you are willing to do that, then... would be very helpful if you take & post pic of your complete door when open and looking head onto it... And top of front door jam and full rear door jamb.

[DaveMcKenz]

Yep,
Like Karl says, there are five adjusting bolts that position the window frame; two in the rear, two in the middle and one in front. If you loosen all of them, slightly, you will be able to move it around some. It's trial and error for me, but I'm sure there are some pros here who can tell you the exact steps.
Good luck,
Dave

[azhodge]

[DaveMcKenz]

One more inside the door at the bottom, just behind the speaker hole. It's an L-shaped bracket that the window rail attaches to.
Dave

[RSTarga]

There is also a frame support inside the door that can be adjusted for tilt

[azhodge]

I just noticed the plug on the bottom of the door frame for the first time in twenty years.

[Discseven]

AZ,

Adjusting window frame is done after door and latch on car are positioned correctly.

Pull the caps where arrow'd on front and rear door jams. You'll see 5mm allens. Loosen all of them. You want them loose enough to make adjustments to the window frame but sung enough to hold your adjustments. All provide some degree of adjustment. Hopefully enough to get you what you want.




In/out pitch of window frame is adjusted at 2 points. There is forward frame pitch and rear frame pitch. Rear is adjusted by moving the "20 year" bottom allen at the rear of the door jam. Move this allen in towards center of the car to loosen top of frame to car. Move it out and away from center of car to tighten top of frame to car. When doing this, loosen one of the two top allens completely. The other top allen (snug but movable) will serve as a pivot point. Adjusting in/out pitch of forward section of the window's frame is done here...



Looks like your fastener is missing here. You'll need some washers to make this adjustment (along with fastener of course.) Fastener secures a bracket to the door. That bracket is attached to the forward window rail. Washers go between the bracket and the door to act as shims to pull the bracket (bottom of the window rail) closer to the door, or push it out---thereby adjusting the pitch of the forward window rail. So, reduce the number of washers to loosen top of window frame to car. Add washers to tighten top of frame to car.

Adjusting a window frame to optimal position is trial and error affair. I suggest dealing with height first bearing in mind that pitch will have some effect on the height / tightness of the frame to the car. You'll appreciate this height/pitch dynamic once you begin testing adjustments.

Once you have the frame set, and are ready to test its position...and before closing door completely... allens need to be snugged tighter than when making adjustments (or closing of the door can throw things out of wack.) No need to uber tight them at this stage. That comes later.

There's a fine line between window frame that is set "just right" and one that's either too loose or too tight. Too lose seems to be your scenario. Too tight will stress parts. What seems to be the way to make a determination in a coupe is looking at the crush of the seal and sensing how the door closes. It's a matter of opinion (door feel) as to what's "just right."

It can be time consuming but once you get the frame right... it's done. Once positioned as you like it, then tighten the F out of everything.

If you have any problems... post them and we'll sort it out.

[RD911T]

Thanks for the education Discseven. I'm restoring a 71 coupe and the frames were not in the doors when I got it. I installed them with no real knowledge of how to adjust them. Both window frames hit the body at the top front near the top of the wing window. Does this mean I need to adjust the tops out? Both doors are reluctant to close all the way unless I slam them (which I don't).

[SCadaddle]

I'll add that I was instructed to use a 2 or 3 inch wide strip of paper--in my instance I used a sheet of paper from a yellow legal pad--to fit between the window frame and the body seal long side of the paper up and down then close the door on the paper and use said paper as a feeler gauge. If you can just pull the paper between the parts then you have the in-out correct. Check it in several spots around the top of the frame, the front and the rear of the frame. Of course I'd suggest you road test the car with the windows up at highway speeds and listen for wind noise as you push the frame out a bit with the hand that isn't on the steering wheel *before* you put all the door parts back on and can't get to the adjustment bolts inside the door.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by RD911T

Thanks for the education Discseven. I'm restoring a 71 coupe and the frames were not in the doors when I got it. I installed them with no real knowledge of how to adjust them. Both window frames hit the body at the top front near the top of the wing window. Does this mean I need to adjust the tops out? Both doors are reluctant to close all the way unless I slam them (which I don't).

From my interpretation of your description, it sounds like your frame is tilted forward. Best if you would sketch or photo and post problem visually. This would help clarify. If frame is tilted forward... loosen all and make adjustment. Top line of window frame should follow line of car. It's very easy to see forward or rear tilt by almost closing door and eyeballing relationship of car to top of frame front-to-back---car being the control. Again, am not sure my interpretation of your description is correct... so show problem.

If door will not close easily with crisp sound... window frame is either too high, or too pitched in to center of car at top, or combo of both. 1/16" makes a difference. 1/32" for the maniacal.

Dealing correctly with window frame requires door to be positioned correctly first including door latch being aligned correctly (as latch can move door and so window frame up when door is closing/closed.) Closing door when frame is too tight to car will stress parts / joints so ill advised to leave in this state. To fine tune door & window frame in our 911s can take a few minutes or a few hours. Patience in tool box... = important.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by SCadaddle

I'll add that I was instructed to use a 2 or 3 inch wide strip of paper--in my instance I used a sheet of paper from a yellow legal pad--to fit between the window frame and the body seal long side of the paper up and down then close the door on the paper and use said paper as a feeler gauge. If you can just pull the paper between the parts then you have the in-out correct. Check it in several spots around the top of the frame, the front and the rear of the frame. Of course I'd suggest you road test the car with the windows up at highway speeds and listen for wind noise as you push the frame out a bit with the hand that isn't on the steering wheel *before* you put all the door parts back on and can't get to the adjustment bolts inside the door.

Nice note on the paper feeler SC.

Speaking of wind noise... plugs in door are said to help prevent it so good to have them all installed.

[RD911T]

Originally Posted by Discseven

From my interpretation of your description, it sounds like your frame is tilted forward. Best if you would sketch or photo and post problem visually. This would help clarify. If frame is tilted forward... loosen all and make adjustment. Top line of window frame should follow line of car. It's very easy to see forward or rear tilt by almost closing door and eyeballing relationship of car to top of frame front-to-back---car being the control. Again, am not sure my interpretation of your description is correct... so show problem.

If door will not close easily with crisp sound... window frame is either too high, or too pitched in to center of car at top, or combo of both. 1/16" makes a difference. 1/32" for the maniacal.

Dealing correctly with window frame requires door to be positioned correctly first including door latch being aligned correctly (as latch can move door and so window frame up when door is closing/closed.) Closing door when frame is too tight to car will stress parts / joints so ill advised to leave in this state. To fine tune door & window frame in our 911s can take a few minutes or a few hours. Patience in tool box... = important.

I finished under the car last night and put it on wheels. Here is a pic of the passenger door and where it was hitting. I say was because it isn't hitting since I took it off the jack stands. The jack stands were under the torsion tube and behind the front wheels where the pinch weld curves in around the wheel well. I guess the body was flexing.

[IMG][/IMG]

Here is the other side (driver) where it's hitting, this side looks like the window is tilted in too far as well as too low in the back. It's hard to see how much it's hitting.
[IMG][/IMG]

View of the top line. The back looks low, but I thing this door needs adjustment too. I'm taking it to have some paint work done and will ask them to adjust the door:
[IMG][/IMG]

[Discseven]

AZ,

Not intending to hyjack thread. If I get out of line... say the word. Will provide input to anyone until you're not liking it here. RD... you savvy?!

Look at the line between the car and window here....



Cars obviously flex to one degree or another. The older a 911, the more flex that can be expected. From photo above, I draw two conclusions. 1) Window frame is out of wack leading to the opening of the gap between the frame and car towards the front and towards the rear.... and tightness of seam at middle. 2) Car is bowing downward toward the center (cabin area) causing roof to move down and so closer to the window frame at center. (Would be interesting to know where jack stands were when frame was hitting car. That might add valuable info as to what's going on.)

Both 1 & 2 are out of my realm of expertise to address but for the observations made here. This is not a matter of frame tilt to be DIY adjusted. Am thinking both scenarios are best dealt with by discussing them with a body shop that has Porsche experience.

Assuming car is bowing, path I would consider first would be to adjust shape of window frame along top to match car's line. This does not diminish what may or may not be done concerning the bow of car's body --- am only focused on fit of door & frame to car here.

[azhodge]

Discseven thanks for the information. Just the help I was looking for. never occured to me to add or remove shims at that one location.

[Discseven]

Originally Posted by azhodge

Discseven thanks for the information. Just the help I was looking for. never occured to me to add or remove shims at that one location.