A/C Reverse The Gases in Early Model 911's
 

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1427555463.jpg

Fortunately for ensuing generations, the iconic image of a brilliant idea is not a naked Archimedes, but rather the familiar overhead light bulb, representing the “Eureka Moment” when the fog clears and clarity rushes in.

Why Porsche Early Model 911 Engineer’s or Other People over the decades or all those who tried to improve the Air Conditioning System well known lack of Condenser Surface Area MISSED THIS FACT AMAZES ME!

IF YOU REVERSE THE GAS FLOW NOT ONLY IS THE EARLY MODEL 911 A/C SYSTEM TEMPERATURE MUCH COLDER!

ALSO THE ENGINE OIL TEMPERATURE DOES NOT appreciably RISE WHEN THE A/C IS TURNED ON LIKE IT NORMALLY DOES!

I discovered this 2 years ago when thinking outside the box and tried something crazy on a 911 late at night I was working on, that had been in the back of my mind for a long time and never read or heard anyone anywhere ever did this, and it works better than I could have imagined!

I give this information freely AS A GIFT to 911 owners because I care about you and always have from my enjoyment being an early model 911 owner myself for over 25 years!

I am sorry but I am not going to answer questions about this subject now, it should be obvious and you should be able to figure it out for yourself.

I know this simple and true information when applied is going to be a game changer LoL

BELIEVE IT OR DON'T, BUT IT IS FACT!


I make Parallel Flow Micro-Channel Condensers for Early Model 911's front and rear
Reid Kelly 954 599 5235
I have been doing 911 early model aftermarket A/C engineering new technology posts here since
Join Date: Jul 2011.



I have made this separate New Thread So This New UNKNOWN A/C Information Thread IS Stand Alone and Seen By All

Since it is not April first just yet, please explain how you are reversing the flow of gas in the system. I know a little about air conditioner design after working for a manufacturer in the advanced engineering group.

I think that's what commonly known, understood, to be a HEAT PUMP.




But in this case we're looking for more adequate cooling, not HEAT.

What the ****

I was actually kind of with you on your ac project up until this.

I bet this guy wishes his pal had "reversed the gasses"!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fa...rt-in-face.gif

Must of just caught some "square grouper" off the beach in Ft. Lauderdale. Surely you have found something but it makes no sense.

Reversing the gas flow..like compressor high side directly to evaporator, then low side to condensers and back to the compressor? If that works at all..it would slug the compressor with liquid condensed refrigerant. Not good. The engine would run cooler I suppose..now the condensers are cold, not hot. Till the compressor locks up.

Your reverse engineering leads me to believe you use it for blowing smoke up other peoples as**s.

I am not going to spoon feed you information!

This thread post is honest and true!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There is plenty of info for you, I have given to figure out easy, in what I posted if you have any real early model 911 A/C refrigeration knowledge of gases!!!

I have given a true gift to early model 911 owners with this post!!!!

If you don't have knowledge talk to someone who really does and have them help you figure this out!

I am tired of the trolls here that ruin every a/c thread here no matter what the discussion is!!!

To the NON TROLLS HERE

This is really important information I have given you as a GIFT!

Look what I am dealing with posting honest and factual information for you, notice any A/C related discussion thread here and it is always the same people with more then a thousand posts that have no life but disruption.

You mean like this?

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fa...n-elevator.gif


What "discussion"? You noted in your opening post that you were NOT going to discuss your "epiphany" claim!

Oh, and here's a public service announcement for you - creating a thread with the sole purpose of bragging about one's self-perceived greatness IS "trolling"!

Exactly, Mr. Cornstarch - all smoke all the time! :)

I must be a dodo.

AFAIK, modern mechanical AC works as follows:
1 take a gas and compress to high pressure in the compressor;
2 cool the high pressure gas until it condenses in the Condenser;
3 pass the condensed liquid through a valve so it loses pressure
4 pass the low pressure liquid through the evaporator where the low pressure liquid flashes to a gas and cools the air being blown over the evaporator.

Exactly what are you reversing? Just give me the number of the step.

You guys are are oo slow to say the least over here


BINGO!!! ganun You win a cupee doll AND A GOLD STAR! You were the first to figure this out from the Simple clues I gave


This has never been done by Porsche or anyone else for that matter with this new way
UNTIL I DISCOVERED THIS FLAW AND REVERSAL OF THE GASES

THE gases always went to the rear first than the front


I AM TIRED RIGHT NOW TO PROPERLY FINISH MY CONGRADULATIONS TO YOU BUT I WILL FINISH IT IN THE MORING WHEN I RE-EDIT THIS IN THE MORNING

In light of recent events let's just hope for his day job KeloGes isn't holding others lives in his hands.

I actually think the Reid's idea is excellent. I would have dismissed it because of the additional 20 feet of hose required. Maybe the extra hose doesn't matter. Dumping the heat away from the engine was the next step in a/c design, beginning with the 964. It worked so well that the rear deck condenser was eliminated completely.
Let us know how well this works and how bad it was to run the extra hose.
Thanks,
Dave

Thank YOU Dave for starting to get this!

Throw Out old school early model 911 A/C design thinking come at this with a fresh mind set, you are re-routing the gases differently in direction than they ever were before in Porsches early model 911 OEM (Behr) design!

THEIR ENGINEERS SCREWED UP BIG TIME!!! As far as I know I am the first or the only one to discover this, about 2 years ago when I was working on my 911 new technology A/C system designs


NO EXTRA HOSE like you are thinking is really needed and you would want to use new hose anyway because OEM hose leaks because it is made for R-12 refrigerant; you would be completely rerouteing the gases and the hose and even the house fittings size would change from how they were.

FYI: For R134A refrigerant the molecules are much smaller so you would want to use barrier hose instead of OEM R-12 hose anyway, and if you used "reduced barrier hose" the hose would even be much lighter due to less plys if you decided to use "reduced barrier hose" with; "Standerd size barrier hose" which has more plys the house would be heavier than "reduced barrier hose"

It is up to you to decide if you want to use standard size or reduced size "barrier hose"

Personally I like reduced size barrier hose because its lighter and much easier to route

Um...my underbelly condenser is the first one in the gas flow path, so I guess someone else discovered this AND IMPLEMENTED IT IN A WORKING SYSTEM long before you did.

Credit where credit is due... Now that we have a more complete explanation of "reversing the gases" means vs the opening TEASER post.

Currently the gases just exciting the compressor will be a lot hotter than the gases reaching he front condenser. Therefore using the newly suggested gas routing would, indeed, increase the efficiency of the front condenser, while at the same time reducing the engine heat load.

That is, of course, provided one hasn't already installed one of the available aftermarket front condensers that blocks most of the cooling effects from natural forward motion airflow.

But I fail to see why this obviously expensive and complex idea is a better solution than the less expensive and much more elegant design idea to use the cabin heat blower to both raise the efficiency of the rear condenser while simultaneously diverting the resulting heat around the engine, just as is already being done to good with the '84-88 model years.

Next Reid will tell us that he discovered the earth is round - what a "gift" that will be!

No extra hose?
It seems the hose will go from compressor to front condenser, then back to rear deck condenser, the forward again to receiver/drier, then evaporator.
That is pretty much one extra trip front and back to pick up rear condenser. I'm not sure that's really a problem, but it does mean extra hose, unless I am missing something. (Which is very possible.)
Dave

roflmaO

BINGO!!! ganun You win a KEWPIE DOLL AND A GOLD STAR! You were the first to figure this out from the Simple clues I gave

This has never been done by Porsche or anyone else for that matter with this new way

THE gases always went to the rear first than the front
UNTIL I DISCOVERED THIS FLAW AND REVERSAL OF THE GASES


Believe it or not the hose length is about the same KINDA

REMEMBER I AM NOT SPOON FEADING YOU REGARDING THIS

your doing fine:)!!

Thanks for attempting to think out of the box despite the fact what you describe is merely changing the sequence of which condenser first receives heat-laden freon and not really reversing the refrigerant path through the system.

Imagine a true flow reversal where the high pressure side of the compressor (red) redirects to the evaporator but whose flow is restricted by the downstream expansion valve. A rupture in the former low pressure (blue), now high pressure line is inevitable. Uh uh.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1427653939.jpg

The system would work most efficiently if there were only one condenser (as pictured), but in the front and with a high capacity to transfer max. heat, enough to eliminate the need for an engine-mount condenser. It is this condenser that unnecessarily contributes to heat load. It is there only because it's in an available space with air flow.

Sherwood

Issac Newton actually became reclusive when folks beat the crap out of some of his ideas.

No risk of that here given your pompousness.

ROFLMA

YOU and your Posts: 8,398 need a life outside these treads

That is not "reversal of the gases"..it is correctly called a "rerouting of the gases".

Your Mom tells me the same thing.

So sez the guy who's sole purpose for posting is to troll forum members that are interested in the topic of 911 a/c . . .

BINGO!!! You also win a KEWPIE DOLL AND A GOLD STAR! You weren't the first to figure this out from the SimpleTON clues he gave

Whatever you do, don't cross the streams!

Stream control is very important (note the "outside the box" skill displayed below)!

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/to...n-the-snow.gif

It's OK guys.
It turns out it is reversal of condenser order. He wanted to present a riddle, so he said reversal of gases to add a little mystery. It's either a good idea or it's not. Reid claims it works well. I can see an advantage, but also more hose length.
Anyone want to try it, then you can confirm or deny his layout superiority. Until then we'll just have to guess, or take Reid at his word.
Dave

Yeah, someone do this already and report back. :)

One day, gonna put AC in mine.

Again Correct DAVE!
You seem to be almost the only one here that thinks WITH THEIR BRAIN, Thanks for taking the time and effort to learn.

You WILL DEFINITELY, SEE AN ADVANTAGE WHEN YOU TRY IT! Time will tell as you figure it out! I am not leading you on a path of BS, I would not do that to anyone!

Instead of of all those opening their mouth to disrupt AND BS!

IT FOR SURE WORKS, and even works better with my PFC's, but my PFC's work so well it won't hurt me to give it to the world as a Gift!

I have a well known Porsche repair shop near me that LOVES THIS modification after I did it on one of this client 911's after which I did this on another one of his clients 911's that was even more complicated, and proved it to him and its a major selling point now for him and has has done several other 911 with very happy clients over this; he is not going to be too happy probably about me giving this to the world!

But ITS MINE TO GIVE I discovered it on my own and proved it to myself in the middle of the night and I only gave it to him to use!

GIVE THIS INFO TO ANY early model 911 owner that has OEM A/C and he will sincerely thank you the moment he try's this

As this new 911 A/C GIFT from my heart spreads through out the world I know I will be remembered for doing something nice that affects others


The Nay Sayers in this tread and on this topic for whatever reason have to be the stupidest people in the world when given a TRUE GIFT FOR FREE, THEIR stupidity is really fun to watch from my perspective LoL

Tippy
YOU NEED MORE THAN just THIS I think from what you told me in the past

That's a brilliant conclusion there, Reid! Did you not see the 2nd line in Tippy's post?

And to think you have the nerve to call other people "slow & stupid"!

Okay, now I understand. I was not fully aware of the sequencing of condensers. Also, your terminology was a little too cryptic.
I think that the factory routing was an attempt to keep high-delta-T's; this generally results in greater heat transfer. The high temperature gas is cooled by the engine compartment condenser with medium air temperatures. Then the medium temperature gas is cooled by the front condenser with low temperature air. Theoretically this would result in lower final liquid gas temperature. However, when theory meets reality, then things can change. If the front condenser now does almost all of the cooling, then the rear condenser may even be a liability. I would carefully check inlet and outlet temperatures on the rear condenser to ensure it is still contributing to the cooling; it may not be, and in that case should be removed.

First routing the HOT gas to the front lip condenser and then to the rear lid condenser leaves us with the EXACT same overall refrigerant condensing capability. Plus, isn't the total surface area for heat transfer a lot lower for the front lip condenser?

Net negative for A/C..??

My conclusion is that the only advantage is less heat load to/on the engine.

It seems to me that making use of the cabin heat blower not only increases the efficiency of the rear lid condenser substantively, and only when/as needed, but is also as aid to cooling the engine via the extraction of heat from the exhaust manifold as is done with the 964/993 series.

Besides you also apparently just leaning there are a front and rear sequenced different mismatched front and rear sets of condensers, you need to learn about the other well known A/C design flaw that the body of the this model of 911 was never designed for A/C it was put in only as an afterthought, and the condensers were too small for proper A/C cooling and also the system was designed for R-12 refrigerant which is much colder, not R134A we use today, the tube and fin technology on the oem condensers is obsolete to use with today's R134A refidgerent