updating 3.0 CIS to 3.2 Carrera intake/EFI

[moparrob]

I have a 1978 911 SC with the 3.0 large valve heads. The engine is mostly stock except it does have European pistons and cylinders for slightly higher compression.

I'm not impressed with the fact it runs 37-year-old induction technology, does not control spark advance and parts are becoming more difficult to find if they wear out.I have read enough threads know that many people are switching over to different induction systems with some success.

I want to stay naturally aspirated– mainly due to the fact my compression is too high and the costs associated with changing that situation.

I like the look of the 3.2 Carrera intake manifold (especially when compared to my CIS manifold) and was wondering if any of you have successfully pulled off the upgrade without any major problems.

I know there is a solution called Tbitz but apparently it still uses the warm-up regulator to control fuel pressure (CORRECTION: USES THE AUXILIARY AIR REGULATOR). Apparently you can still use the stock fuel rails and injectors from the 3.2 using the Tbitz system, which is some of a plus I guess.

I really do not see myself getting completely engrossed in the process of learning stand-alone fuel injection management systems, the fine art of developing a fuel map and developing ignition curves on my own. That is the reason the TBitz solution looked appealing.

Has anyone done something different where they used a standalone EFI system in conjunction with the 3.2 manifold, that is somewhat easy to fire up "out-of-the-box"?

I am really not concerned about the cost/benefit analysis issues. I really want something that will be a one-time setup and that when finished I can drive across country without any problems (at least from that part of the system).

I also heard some people are sending their distributors off to Jerry Woods to get them re-curved to utilize a straight mechanical advance and then have the ignition controlled by MSD.

So to summarize, I am hoping that someone else has paved the way and has some good suggestions on where to go from here. Also, if anyone who lives in the Southern California area has done this previously I would love to get together and find out more about this in person.

Thanks again for all your assistance in advance.

[emcon5]

How you planning on passing CA Smog?

[Tippy]

It's really not that simple to drop EFI on an engine and ALL aspects are good. There is A LOT to tune. One bad cell or curve of many maps you program can make the car run like poop.

[timmy2]

The WUR is deleted in the Bitz system.
The only part retained is the Auxillary Air Regulator (AAR) for cold starts.
Some have replaced it with a stepper motor.
I have been running the Bitz kit on my '78 without any trouble for 3 years now.
It can be installed in such a way as to usually pass the visual for smog if that is a concern.
You can change the map to pass emissions easily and then go to a better map (richer) for performance.
The learning curve isn't too steep, it will run decently "right out of the box"
Some have done the 3.2 intake conversion with the Bitz kit, but that wouldn't pass a visual...

[moparrob]

I'm not concerned about visual smog compliance at the moment as the car will not be registered in California.

Dennis, did you find it difficult to learn the basic programming required to fine tune the mapping your system? Which interface do you use? Does the software learn as you drive it and constantly improve itself?

What are you using for ignition control, if anything?

Is there anything else you would have done differently in retrospect that you would recommend to me?

Thanks much.

[timmy2]

I didn't find the learning curve to be too difficult, but, I work with software interfaces for testing Breakers and Transformers and other devices in my job, so I may not be a typical new user.

I am using the stock Bosch ignition system. Tony's version of megasquirt is older and doesn't have ignition control, the controller can and has been upgraded to do so by other members here and at the bitzracing yahoo group.(A great resource for Bitz users)

I replaced the kits simple 02 sensor with an Innovate 02 wideband so I could work with AFR maps in the Tunerstudio program.

I purchased the Tunerstudio program for making the maps, it does learn as you drive and is very easy to use. It is not always on, you drive with your laptop connected and then when you get a tune you like, you save it to the controller and disconnect.
I would recommend finding a laptop with a com port to use, the usb to serial converters have been known to have issues. (We still order them with com ports at work!)
I went for the "clean look" install. You can read about some of the work in my thread here around post 77 and interspersed from there on.
Finally, back in the game!
The inventors thread:
CIS to EFI kit
Title search for Bitz revealed these threads.:
Pelican Parts Technical BBS - Search Results

[moparrob]

Thanks for all the tips, I will check out those resources.

By the way, how would you describe the before and after feeling when driving the car?

[timmy2]

Here is a screenshot I just took of Tunerstudio showing my current AFR and fuel map as would be displayed when tuning the car.

[moparrob]

I just dug through some of my old laptops and found a Toshiba Satellite 1415-S173 that has a serial port and is using an old Celeron 1.8 Ghz processor. It is running Windows XP and only has 512MB of ram. Will this be sufficient?

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by moparrob

Thanks for all the tips, I will check out those resources.

By the way, how would you describe the before and after feeling when driving the car?

Toughest was getting to a good cold start set up (The hardest part of initial tuning it seems)
Then, once I reached my best tune, I had more instant throttle response and power, (I also have SSI's and a Dansk stainless 2 in 1 out, but they were on the car with the CIS)
It actually surprised the heck out of me the first time I stepped on it hard compared to what I was used to. "Holy Crap this is what it should feel like driving this car" is what I said out loud to myself

What I really enjoy the most is just jumping in the car, turning the key and driving. Every time I get in it.

I've had a couple of local 911 owners jump in and go for a ride with me and they were impressed with the difference from their cars.

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by moparrob

I just dug through some of my old laptops and found a Toshiba Satellite 1415-S173 that has a serial port and is using an old Celeron 1.8 Ghz processor. It is running Windows XP and only has 512MB of ram. Will this be sufficient?

Probably will work just fine if not much else is running on it. May want to check with the guys at Tunerstudio for their minimum system requirements.

My old garage dedicated Dell Inspiron 8500 laptop from 2003 with some extra memory and a larger hard drive is running Win7

[moparrob]

Rats, I just double checked and I have a parallel port and external monitor port - but no serial port...

[timmy2]

Old ones like mine are cheap on flea bay...
Just make sure they have a serial port.
I bought a spare one for parts for mine that was still working for $125.
A lot of the older Dells had serial ports.
Inspiron 8500/8600 were top laptop models back in the day..
Just looked on E slay, there are lots from $20 and up!
Here's one example. the rear view shows a serial port. No OS installed though...Dell Inspiron 8500 15 4" Laptop Computer Intel P4 2 2GHz 1GB 30GB DVDROM | eBay

This one is basically exactly what I have, a little pricey though...

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DELL-Inspiron-8500-Windows-7-120GB-HDD-2-40GHz-CPU-Bluetooth-MSOffice-2003-/271840142910?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f4aef663e

[Tippy]

You don't need a serial port laptop, just buy a serial to USB adapter from DIYAutotune thst interfaces with TunerStudio just fine.

[jamesjedi]

The 964 intake has been adapted many times to the 3.0 L engine. a few of cars that run in the POC spec911 series have done this. Rothsport racing has the parts/info.

[emcon5]

Originally Posted by Tippy

You don't need a serial port laptop, just buy a serial to USB adapter from DIYAutotune thst interfaces with TunerStudio just fine.

You can get those pretty much anywhere that sells computer stuff:

Amazon.com: TRENDnet USB to RS-232 DB9 Serial Converter: Electronics

Lots of network hardware still needs to be initially configured with a serial console cable.

[timmy2]

My opinion on USB to Serial adapters is biased by years of experience having them fail to communicate with legacy equipment in multiple applications. So much so within our utilities service area of Montana, Idaho, Washington and Oregon, that we spec new PC's with serial ports just because of the unreliability.
I have read a few threads on the bitzracing forum about trouble with adapters.

Just my opinion, but removing a possible interface problem is the way to go.

[Tippy]

Quote de Tippy

You don't need a serial port laptop, just buy a serial to USB adapter from DIYAutotune thst interfaces with TunerStudio just fine.

You can get those pretty much anywhere that sells computer stuff:



Amazon.com: TRENDnet USB to RS-232 DB9 Serial Converter: Electronics



Lots of network hardware still needs to be initially configured with a serial console cable.

TunerStudio has been known to have interface issues with certain serial to USB adapters. That's why I recommended what they recommend to be safe.