MSD Streetfire install questions.

[hawaii83cab]

After going through 2 of the factory CDIs I am looking to install a MSD Streetfire unit. I had a few questions about compatibility with the current parts I have.
1. I have a new Accel coil. Will this work with the MSD?
2. I don't know if the plug wires I have will work with the new ignition.I can't find a maker on them, they just say 7mm ultra high temp silicone copper. They are all grounded. I have included a pic so you can see what I'm working with. Thanks!

[tirwin]

Why is your coil mounted sideways? Does the manufacturer say it can't be mounted upside down? Not sure how I feel about that mounting. FYI... If you do get a new coil, the MSD Blaster II High Vibration coil is the only direct replacement MSD makes that can be mounted upside down.

Quoting the MSD StreetFire manual: "The Street Fire Ignition can be used with most stock coils and aftermarket coils designed to replace the stock coils. If you have any questions concerning coils, contact our Customer Service Department at (915) 855-7123."

The main thing with the wires is you can't use solid core wires with MSD -- they must be braided.

[hawaii83cab]

The factory coil was mounted this way. I just removed the factory coil and slid this one into place. About my wires, how can I tell if they are solid core?

Originally Posted by tirwin

Why is your coil mounted sideways? Does the manufacturer say it can't be mounted upside down? Not sure how I feel about that mounting. FYI... If you do get a new coil, the MSD Blaster II High Vibration coil is the only direct replacement MSD makes that can be mounted upside down.

Quoting the MSD StreetFire manual: "The Street Fire Ignition can be used with most stock coils and aftermarket coils designed to replace the stock coils. If you have any questions concerning coils, contact our Customer Service Department at (915) 855-7123."

The main thing with the wires is you can't use solid core wires with MSD -- they must be braided.

[zedsn]

I think you will need to get a brand of spark plug wires like magnecor.

[tirwin]

I don't know how you can tell without taking apart the old ones. Probably need Magnecor or Clewett wires.

[wwest]

The braided/shielded HV wires should be discarded.

The factory couldn't at first figure out why so many airbox cracks due to backfires and this was tried as a solution. The engine thought that the backfires were the result of the HV jumping between HV wires, thus firing the wrong plug.... BACKFIRE!

The real, FINAL solution was to add an idle injector fuel distribution manifold so the fuel didn't pool in the bottom center of the airbox.

The grounded metal braid/shield is also detriment to the risetime of the HV spark, acts as a capacitor slowing the risetime of the HV spark.

Your loss of the CDIs and potentially the MSD might be the result of using the wrong coil.

Coils of the type shown are designed to "store" the spark energy during the RPM limited time of the "points" closure. The Kettering design, coil/points, was always a compromise. The coil had to have a low enough impedance, inductance/resistance, to store a full charge at maximum engine RPM, but yet not overheat from excessive current flow at idle. Thus the POWER series resistor.

Ignition coil design engineers struggled to overcome this compromise for years.

Then along came "Silicon Valley"...

Solid State POWER switching transistors that could withstand ~500 volt collector breakdown voltage.

So now we have COP, Coil On Plug" Kettering ignition coil that designed to store the IDEAL level at the TOP engine RPM. At lower RPM values PWM, Pulse Width Modulation, is used to limit the coil "charge" time.

But what about CDI...?

You should use a power coupling "coil", a TRANSFORMER, since the spark energy is now stored in a capacitor, NOT the "coil".

[wwest]

http://www.amazon.com/High-Output-E-Core-Super-Ignition/dp/B005GRGT1Q

[hawaii83cab]

Ok thanks for the info. The reason I bought the Accel coil was because I had seen on here that a few people used it with no problems. I have no problem getting the unit you recommended. I will have to see if I can source the plug wires here locally tomorrow. If I can't get them quickly do you think it will be a problem when setting up the new ignition?

Originally Posted by wwest

The braided/shielded HV wires should be discarded.

The factory couldn't at first figure out why so many airbox cracks due to backfires and this was tried as a solution. The engine thought that the backfires were the result of the HV jumping between HV wires, thus firing the wrong plug.... BACKFIRE!

The real, FINAL solution was to add an idle injector fuel distribution manifold so the fuel didn't pool in the bottom center of the airbox.

The grounded metal braid/shield is also detriment to the risetime of the HV spark, acts as a capacitor slowing the risetime of the HV spark.

Your loss of the CDIs and potentially the MSD might be the result of using the wrong coil.

Coils of the type shown are designed to "store" the spark energy during the RPM limited time of the "points" closure. The Kettering design, coil/points, was always a compromise. The coil had to have a low enough impedance, inductance/resistance, to store a full charge at maximum engine RPM, but yet not overheat from excessive current flow at idle. Thus the POWER series resistor.

Ignition coil design engineers struggled to overcome this compromise for years.

Then along came "Silicon Valley"...

Solid State POWER switching transistors that could withstand ~500 volt collector breakdown voltage.

So now we have COP, Coil On Plug" Kettering ignition coil that designed to store the IDEAL level at the TOP engine RPM. At lower RPM values PWM, Pulse Width Modulation, is used to limit the coil "charge" time.

But what about CDI...?

You should use a power coupling "coil", a TRANSFORMER, since the spark energy is now stored in a capacitor, NOT the "coil".

[MJHanna]

If your going to install the street fire why not just buy their coil and know that they are going to work together?

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by MJHanna

If your going to install the street fire why not just buy their coil and know that they are going to work together?

AMEN to that ^^^^^. Just ignore the ravings of WWEST, our resident "know it all"!
Ask TIRWIN about his experience. I helped with his car, and it runs fantastic with the appropriate coil recommended by MSD and Clewett wires!

[timmy2]

MSD Blaster II high vibration coil is the one most are using including me for the past 3.5 years.

[tirwin]

One more thing... you'll need a resistor-less rotor. NAPA Echlin brand -- part number EP407.

Good idea to change your cap and plugs when you do this. I use NGK BP7ES plugs. Start with a plug gap of .033. Go up in .005 increments until fouling occurs and then back off .005.

Run a dedicated hot wire from the starter to the heavy red wire on the StreetFire with a 15A fuse. I think the wire gauge is 12. Timmy2 can correct me if I'm wrong.

Once you do all this then mount your coil correctly.

[dicklague]

Originally Posted by tirwin

One more thing... you'll need a resistor-less rotor. NAPA Echlin brand -- part number EP407.

Good idea to change your cap and plugs when you do this. I use NGK BP7ES plugs. Start with a plug gap of .033. Go up in .005 increments until fouling occurs and then back off .005.

Run a dedicated hot wire from the starter to the heavy red wire on the StreetFire with a 15A fuse. I think the wire gauge is 12. Timmy2 can correct me if I'm wrong.

Once you do all this then mount your coil correctly.

Good advice on all of the above. Make sure you have a good ground and a good hot wire. Don't trust the 12 pin connector.....go to the starter side of that wire for the +12vdc.

The new CDI has +12vdc, and switched 12vdc. Use the switched from the Bosch CDI wiring.

I have some rotors if you have trouble finding them.

Keep us posted......like to know how it comes out.

[reesestewww]

Originally Posted by tirwin

One more thing... you'll need a resistor-less rotor. NAPA Echlin brand -- part number EP407.

Good idea to change your cap and plugs when you do this. I use NGK BP7ES plugs. Start with a plug gap of .033. Go up in .005 increments until fouling occurs and then back off .005.

Run a dedicated hot wire from the starter to the heavy red wire on the StreetFire with a 15A fuse. I think the wire gauge is 12. Timmy2 can correct me if I'm wrong.

Once you do all this then mount your coil correctly.

This step tirwin mentioned that I've high-lighted in bold is very important. Don't skip it.

I recently did this install:
Spark Plug, NGK BP7ES - non-resistor plugs
Magnecor KV85 8.5mm Ignition Wire Set
MSD 5520 Street Fire Ignition Control Box
MSD 8222 Blaster High Vibration Ignition Coil
Bosch 03008 Distributor Cap
Bosch 04008 Distributor Rotor (this was supposed to be a non-resistor rotor, however it doesn't appear to be)

[wwest]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Why is your coil mounted sideways? Does the manufacturer say it can't be mounted upside down? Not sure how I feel about that mounting. FYI... If you do get a new coil, the MSD Blaster II High Vibration coil is the only direct replacement MSD makes that can be mounted upside down.

Quoting the MSD StreetFire manual: "The Street Fire Ignition can be used with most stock coils and aftermarket coils designed to replace the stock coils. If you have any questions concerning coils, contact our Customer Service Department at (915) 855-7123."

The main thing with the wires is you can't use solid core wires with MSD -- they must be braided.

Do you mean say the HV wire braid/shield must be in place or "they must be braided" has a different meaning?

[tirwin]

I meant don't use a solid core type wire like the OEM Berus with the MSD because that is specifically stated in their documentation. Use wires that are helically wound like Magnecor or Clewett. I personally like the Clewetts for fit and finish. No personal experience with Magnecor but they seem to be another popular choice.

[wwest]

From the "horse's mouth.....

Post #2, last line...

E-core vs U-core - MSD Tech Support Forums

Look familier?




http://www.msdignition.com/Products/Coils/Race/8250_-_MSD_6_HVC_Coil.aspx

[tirwin]

Willard, there is nothing wrong with using an E-type coil. The older style coils work though and they are a drop-in replacement. If you're looking for something useful to do why don't you do the math to quantify the spark energy differential between the coil types and then provide a step-by-step documentation procedure for making all the necessary modifications? Then users can decide which solution they would prefer to use based on time, cost and value.

[timmy2]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Willard, there is nothing wrong with using an E-type coil. The older style coils work though and they are a drop-in replacement. If you're looking for something useful to do why don't you do the math to quantify the spark energy differential between the coil types and then provide a step-by-step documentation procedure for making all the necessary modifications? Then users can decide which solution they would prefer to use based on time, cost and value.

lol, that should take a few minutes...

[wwest]

Originally Posted by tirwin

Willard, there is nothing wrong with using an E-type coil. The older style coils work though and they are a drop-in replacement. If you're looking for something useful to do why don't you do the math to quantify the spark energy differential between the coil types and then provide a step-by-step documentation procedure for making all the necessary modifications? Then users can decide which solution they would prefer to use based on time, cost and value.

What I'm saying is that if you need to, want to, buy a new coil then buy a CDI "compatible" coil. The E-Core, otherwise known as an E&I core, "transformer" type coil is the best answer.

My first effort with electronic ignitions goes back to my new 1963 T-Bird, special ballast resistor, 100:1 coil and a PNP power transistor that didn't break down before the plug fired thus limiting the coil primary voltage rise.

It was about 1970 before I transitioned to CDI. Built my own based on magazine article (Poplar Mechanics?).