What would it take to bring a '74 911 back to life?

[dcjosh]

First things first:





I have the opportunity to assist in bringing this 1974 911 back to life. The car has been sitting for about 10 years and ran when it was parked in this garage. Nothing has been done to it since.

Outside the obvious of new gas and battery, what are other things to look out for when trying to bring this beauty back to life? According to Rennlist guys, there is a system called CIS which I need to look into and check out to ensure it is clean before starting it up. Are there guides available to study before I tear into her? Thanks for any inputs you may have!

[Dpmulvan]

There are many very knowledgable guys here to answer your questions,but I'm not one of them.You could start by picking up a few books on the car available from our host.

[Charles Freeborn]

Similar thread. My post is about half way down.
1977 not started in 10 years - Rennlist Discussion Forums

As for CIS, yes, you've got it. Whether it's still working depends on a number of things, mostly how the car was stored and if it's sludged, rusted or otherwise stuck. If so, there are companies that specialize in restoring them. rarelyl8 and cisflowtech come to mind.

Most important advice I can give is don't rush it. You can do many thousands of $ in damage in only a few seconds by starting it before it's ready.

-C

[tdw28210]

$23.62 plus parts.

http://www.amazon.com/Rebuild-Modify-Porsche-Engines-1965-1989/dp/0760310874

[dcjosh]

Great input so far. I will look into picking up Mr. Dempsey's book soon. I have his copy for my 2003 C4S.

I found this, it looks interesting:
http://jimsbasementworkshop.com/CIS/page_images/73%20911T%20CIS%20Print.pdf

I am taking to understand that the CIS serves as a 'mechanical' fuel injection system? Does that sound correct? Does Pelican offer rebuild kits for these like for carburetors?

It sounds like the 2.7 model years of the 911 are looked upon as poorly as my 996, almost.

The woman who owns the car received it from her father, who is was the original owner. She does not know what to do with it and does not have the space for it. I'm looking to take it in as a winter project.

[Spumato]

It will cost more than the previous post. Not sure he's gone through this. I can certainly speak for direct 1974 Coupe experience. Mine had sat for 15 years! The fuel system will need to be drained. The fuel tank will need to be removed and cleaned. That will cost you about $300 at a radiator shop. Your Fuel distributor is likely plugged and will need to be rebuilt. Don't got with the guy in Texas that does DeLoreans. There's an outfit in Atlanta that is better. The rebuild/exchange will run about $500 + $500 for your core that is refundable. You will need to find a local hose supply company and replace the supply lines from the back of the fuel pump to the Fuel Distributor. You will want to have your Fuel injectors ultrasonically cleaned by a diesel machine shop. Should run around $300. Then there are other wear items to think about like your brakes. You will need new rotors and pads. Possible caliper rebuilds. Don't drive it without checking to ensure that you don't have broken head studs. The sitting is the worst. It will have taken serious toll on these. A full engine rebuild, done right, will cost upwards of around $14,000. I am not trying to scare you away, but this is not to be seen as an investment, but for purists who love this car!

[tdw28210]

Originally Posted by dcjosh

Great input so far. I will look into picking up Mr. Dempsey's book soon. I have his copy for my 2003 C4S.

I found this, it looks interesting:
http://jimsbasementworkshop.com/CIS/page_images/73%20911T%20CIS%20Print.pdf

I am taking to understand that the CIS serves as a 'mechanical' fuel injection system? Does that sound correct? Does Pelican offer rebuild kits for these like for carburetors?

It sounds like the 2.7 model years of the 911 are looked upon as poorly as my 996, almost.

The woman who owns the car received it from her father, who is was the original owner. She does not know what to do with it and does not have the space for it. I'm looking to take it in as a winter project.

Yep...Middies ('74 to '77) are the bastard children of the short-hood era. '74's being the top of that heap. The '74 Carrera is a legit collector car. The 2.7 motor, especially with thermal reactors are possibly the worst thing Porsche ever did to a 6 cylinder motor.

Some guys love 'em, but my guess it is because they are married to them. I am ditching mine for a swap to a 3.2. Running 2.7's sell for $3k 'cuz everyone knows there are least 3 or 4 pulled head studs and other lurking nasty surprises inside that 170 hp beast. ; )

You may get lucky and this thing will run with little effort, but unless the gas was drained it is likely the tank, seal and maybe the sender are goners. That is $500 right there. Careful on the radiator shop gas tank clean ups. Those tanks have a plastic swirl pots inside that can deteriorate if the wrong chemicals are used. New tanks can be had here for $400. That is what I did.

Good luck. Get Wayne's book.

[Charles Freeborn]

Before you rush to judgement on the injection system, you can do some testing and diagnostics for very little money. AFTER you've cleaned the tank, lines and changed the filter you can pull the injectors, dangle them in a glass jar., and then with their box cover off and air filter out, reach in and manually lift the airflow lever. You'll be able to see if the injectors are spraying. Needless to say the fuel pump needs to be running. CIS is not mechanical injection in the traditional sense. It's a mechanical device regulated by airflow. The Bentley book written by Probst is the best reference. If the distributor needs work, it's not really a user friendly project. It will be money well spent taking it to a specialist.
-C

[timmy2]

Search for CIS for dummies here on the for and then Google Jim's basement workshop.

[boyt911sc]

O

Originally Posted by dcjosh

First things first:





I have the opportunity to assist in bringing this 1974 911 back to life. The car has been sitting for about 10 years and ran when it was parked in this garage. Nothing has been done to it since.

Outside the obvious of new gas and battery, what are other things to look out for when trying to bring this beauty back to life? According to Rennlist guys, there is a system called CIS which I need to look into and check out to ensure it is clean before starting it up. Are there guides available to study before I tear into her? Thanks for any inputs you may have!

DC,

Are you doing all the needed work for this car? The first thing you need to do is drain and clean the fuel tank. Replace the gas tank filter and the fuel line filter. When you replace the fuel tank filter, you will have an idea how dirty or rusty is the interior of the tank. As long as you don't have floating or loose debris inside the swirl pot, you will be fine running the engine.

A fuel pressure gauge is a mandatory tool for fuel injection troubleshooting. You need one. And if you don't have one, you will be wasting a lot of your precious time looking for answers to your problems. Check if you have ignition (ignition sparks) and if you do, the rest are easy.

You need to know or test the following:
a). Presence of good strong ignition sparks. Use and inductive timing light if you have one.
b). Check and measure your fuel pressures (control, system, and residual). For these tests, you need a pressure gauge kit.
c). Since you have an early CIS, your FP should re running once you turned the ignition switch @ ON position (not start).
d). An oil change, new set of spark plugs, and ignition timing (wait for the engine to run).
e). It would be ideal to do a vacuum test. But for the meantime, postpone this test and wait after the start up.

I strongly suggest to refrain from starting the engine until you removed the old fuel in the system and have an oil change including filter. Then you could purge the fuel line system with fresh fuel and at the same time check for any sign of fuel leak in the engine bay.

If you want the six (6) fuel injectors tested? I could help you with this one. I could do all 6 injectors including pressure test for FREE if you mail them to me. They will fit in a USPS small flate box under $6.00 for a total of $12 including the return. I could do the test in a few minutes like 3 to 5 mins. per injector unless you have the tool or equipment to do it. Keep us posted.

Tony

[fintstone]

I love my '74. It is a great car...but they are a lot a money pit to get them that way unless you have mad skills and a garage full of parts...or if the previous owner meticulously maintained them and drove them regularly. If I knew then (when I first became addicted to them) , what I know now...I would have run, not walked, away. That said..,the car looks just like my first one...and I am addicted (plus I could build an entire car from the parts in my garage). Is it for sale?

[djb25]

There are a lot of really scary replies in this thread. Don't let that discourage you. The car may come to life quite easily, it may not. You won't know until you tear into it. Change the fluids and the filters. Read up on CIS and learn how to run the necessary tests. Make sure you drain the tank and flush the fuel system before you do anything else.

As for the suggestion to buy Wayne's engine rebuilding book... The 2.7l engine may not be the best air cooled power plant Porsche produced, but you don't have to rebuild the damn thing because it sat for 10 years. Engines don't have "use by" dates. If the engine needed a rebuild when it was parked, it will still need a rebuild. If it didn't need a rebuild, it is unlikely it will need one now.

it looks like the car was stored in a clean, dry garage. if that's the case, that's a good sign.

[chrismorse]

IF you like doing mechanical/maintenance work and you are a fair mechanic to start with, (not professional, but ok diy), then this may be a fun, entertaining, engrossing project for you.

Are there any service records available??? That may tell you a lot, especially the 2.7 weak areas, head studs, valve guides, oil leaks, rear bar mounts..........

If you are going to have to pay to get the work done, you should have the car towed to good Porsche mechanic for a PPI, (pre purchase inspection).

You need to know if the car has serious rust issues, or has been badly bent.

Then there are numerous maintenance issues that can mount up in a hurry, assuming that the compression/leakdown numbers look ok:

CV joints, wheel bearings, suspension bushings, shocks, brake calipers needing overhaul, discs needing turning, pads, flex lines, master cylinder, steering rack overhaul/gaiters, fuel lines, rats nests above the oil cooler.

Speaking of oil coolers, does the car have at least a trombone cooler in the right front fender??? I don't think I am going out on a limb here, saying that all 2.7s need at least a front fender oil cooler, Particularly if you have ac. My dad's oil temps were frightening with ac on - truly scary oil pressure, (or lack there of).

You are likely to need tires and an alignment, not right away, you are probably going to need to do some suspension work.

How is the interior??? The paint???

How does the trans sound, (I know you haven't even tried to start it, but the trans can soak up a "few bucks", as well.

My dad took pretty good care of the 74, but I am going through a lot of stuff, suspension and brakes, front cooler, shifter, tires, and have a noisy trans that will likely soak up $2000- $3000 as well.

My dad is gone, but I have his car and will do it right.

Get some help and Look it over and make a list.

Good Luck,
chris

ps: I don't mean to beat up on the 74, the big majority of all of the above mentioned issues apply to ANY 30 year old car that has sat and you have no records or knowledge.

[74TT]

DC,
Your car sounds just like mine! Only mine was sitting for an additional 15 years.
I've had the car now for 3 years, and still haven't driven it! I pulled the engine
since it was very dirty, had to clean the crud and mouse fluff out! While doing
so, discovered 12 snapped head studs! Cleaned up the block, valves and anything else
that needed it , got new tensioners , oil return tubes, completely rebuilt the heating system
all the way up to new flapper boxes.
Did a few upgrades, turbo tie rods & braided brake hoses.
I have no idea how much money or time I have in it, I have all receipts for
everything but really don't want to look!

As far as the CIS, I've learned a bit and have a lot more to learn. My WUR and Fuel
Distributor are presently being rebuilt. Because mine is an early '74 it uses '73.5
parts, at least the WUR, that is not rebuildable. I've sourced another (later) WUR
but there are other issues. I guess what I'm saying is don't rush the car. Be patient
and get help when you need it. I've always done all my own work on all my cars, but
good advice and help is invaluable. This site is a great resource as there are many
knowledgeable and helpful people here.

Here's a shot of the engine (early last spring) when I finally got the engine back in.
Cheers!
Steve

[Jdub]

First things first - pics! I like that. Is that a Euro car by any chance?

If the price is right, I think you have a winner, especially if you use this 'Board, study books, and have the space to lift the car and perform some work. The 911 is so well laid out for work and receptive to thoughtful updates and proper maintenance it is very rewarding to work on.

I bought mine abandoned in an underground parking garage and really I don't look at any other cars since I've owned a 911 and I've owned a lot of different sports cars.

[sc_rufctr]

What would it take? Looking at the photos... About 3K some skill and time.

I resurrected a similar looking car about 18 months ago. (dusty and neglected for about 12 years)

Serviced and replaced as nessesary >>>

* fuel system (complete from front to back)
* The brakes
* engine and all ancillaries (starter motor, alternator etc)
* Reviewed and repaired the electrical system (windows, lights, all switches etc)
And of course a complete engine and gearbox service.

Full clean inside and out... Pressure washed, cleaned the underside and fixed some small rust issues.

I resold the car and made a small profit.

[fintstone]

While the car sitting in a dry, somewhat protected environment for 10 years really helps, decent looking cars are not usually parked and left for 10 years unless there is a major problem...or multiple ones. Try to find out history if possible. Maybe just an aging owner or illness ir death in family. Good luck, should be a great project!

[74-911]

Originally Posted by djb25

There are a lot of really scary replies in this thread. Don't let that discourage you. The car may come to life quite easily, it may not. You won't know until you tear into it. Change the fluids and the filters. Read up on CIS and learn how to run the necessary tests. Make sure you drain the tank and flush the fuel system before you do anything else.

As for the suggestion to buy Wayne's engine rebuilding book... The 2.7l engine may not be the best air cooled power plant Porsche produced, but you don't have to rebuild the damn thing because it sat for 10 years. Engines don't have "use by" dates. If the engine needed a rebuild when it was parked, it will still need a rebuild. If it didn't need a rebuild, it is unlikely it will need one now.

it looks like the car was stored in a clean, dry garage. if that's the case, that's a good sign.

this post gives the best advice IMHO... just take it slow and easy and don't start throwing money at stuff that doesn't need doing or can wait. Many 2.7L engines have never experienced any problems as there are many variables that come into play. The fuel system and brakes are your main concern at this time, most anything else you can look at once you get it running. The suspension probably needs refreshing as do many other areas but it may be perfectly safe to drive and maybe they can wait a while?

[tharbert]

Originally Posted by Spumato

... Then there are other wear items to think about like your brakes. You will need new rotors and pads. Possible caliper rebuilds...

I'd like to walk this back a bit. You don't really need to just replace parts. The brake system is dead simple 70's fair. The rotors aren't going to go bad just sitting there. Neither are the pads. I would replace the flexible lines, flush the brake fluid and check the calipers for movement or just pull them for rebuild. Kits are cheap.

[fintstone]

I guess the point is...you just don't know until you look/test the systems. Obviously brakes don't go bad from sitting...but if they were worn out when parked, they didn't get fixed by sitting either. The same with the engine, tranny, etc. The car is over 40 years old and nothing got any better from sitting (It was over 30 years old when parked). Especially seals, fuel tank or anything with fluids (if not prepped for storage), dry rotting tires, battery, etc. Targas also often have leak/top problems which may need addressed. if you look at this BBS and see the thousands of problems with cars that were actually running, daily drivers...there are limitless potential problems. Especially if the car is an unknown and hadn't moved in a decade. What is a simple, easy fix to someone who is knowledgable of these cars really becomes a mess quick if you don't know what you are doing. Look at some of the longer threads where well-meaning "help" here turned little wiring problems or a bad coil into CIS disassembly, new injectors, capacitive discharge nice, etc. While one can hope it was parked in perfect condition 10 years ago, I suspect that is an unlikely scenario.

So...one should plan for the worst and hope for the best. A battery, tires, fresh fuel and an oil change might make it a running, drivable car (but likely, that is just the start)...or it might need brakes, struts, engine, tranny work as well. Still a great car/ project, but one need to know what they are getting into. There aren't $2500 crate engines for an old 911. An engine rebuild costs close to $10k. Getting these worked on is not cheap. You can't take it to just any mechanic as most will either shake their head...or do more damage than good.

Unless you are skilled or have a mentor to help, it is really not an easy car to learn.

That particular car is the base model (not an "S" so it is relatively underpowered, came without an external oil cooler (unless one was added), and likely doesn't have air (and certainly not working air) which would cost thousands to fix/add if wanted. It would be a great hobby car for nice days, but few would tolerate it as a daily driver...even if in perfect condition.

It looks like it is in good shape cosmetically to start with. It is a cool car and a great project. I would buy it in a minute and fix it up if I were you. But the reason that this forum exists is because they need lots of work and parts (which finance the site). The owner here seems to do quite well selling parts (and also provides a great service to those of us who come here).

Good luck with it!