DIY - How To Make 3-Piece Fuchs

[robcf]

Of I forgot the wheel weights.

I weighed the wheel centres and rims individually on my precision scale (max 3kg, repeatable to 0.5g).

I expect the wheels shall weigh the following once assembled with valves, fasteners and silicone:

Front - 14.3lbs
Rear - 15.2 lbs (the extra 1.5" in rim width doesnt add much mass)

[winders]

I thought most 3 piece wheels has the two rim halves against each other and the center on top of the outer rim half. The obvious advantage is that there are only two surfaces that have to be sealed instead of four as in your design. Why not follow that design philosophy?

[robcf]

Hi winders,

There are three possible combinations of rim/wheel combinations, two of which are the same. Most wheel manufactures will use any of three depending on application:

- rim/rim/wheel or wheel/rim/rim.
- rim/wheel/rim.

Due to the shape of the 16X6 forging it is not possible to machine a deep centring spigot on the rear side of the wheel for a BBS style inner rim and maintain a thick section to bolt through.
So the trade off is an additional pair of sealing surface VS potential runout as the only the bolts will locate the inner barrel radially which is not ideal in my opinion.

An example of this construction type is the BBS RS wheel.

[McLaren-TAG]

Very cool post Rob and well document (we always like pics) but man let me tell you there's absolutely nothing DIY about it!

[aston@ultrasw.c]

Originally Posted by Porboynz

I was right there with you when the angle grinder was used, after that I was overwhelmed with Workshop Envy.

BAHAHA - me too!

[78-911SC]

Rob great thread. From your perspective do you think it's possible to make a 16" 7R wheels?
Original 7 x 15 R's were 49mm offset and 138 backsize. (901.361.012.05) Was thinking about doing my 15" steelies into 7R's (heavy) but maybe I should be looking at converting 16" fuchs.

[mskala]

Originally Posted by 78-911SC

Rob great thread. From your perspective do you think it's possible to make a 16" 7R wheels?
Original 7 x 15 R's were 49mm offset and 138 backsize. (901.361.012.05) Was thinking about doing my 15" steelies into 7R's (heavy) but maybe I should be looking at converting 16" fuchs.

I have Fuchs centers (not sure who cut them) with a small centering lip on the
front side. I mount both BBS rim halves on the front, with a BBS rim seal. Mine are
not 7x16, but I put the numbers in a spreadsheet to determine offset options.

Based on my centers, a 7x16" wheel could be made with 44.5mm offset using BBS
1" outer and 6" inner. That is pretty close to 49. May vary a couple mm based on
how the center is cut. You can gain about 3mm by eliminating the rim seal and
going with RTV.

My wheels are 7.5x16 and weigh 15.5lbs.

BTW good job, original poster.

[safe]

Originally Posted by 78-911SC

Rob great thread. From your perspective do you think it's possible to make a 16" 7R wheels?
Original 7 x 15 R's were 49mm offset and 138 backsize. (901.361.012.05) Was thinking about doing my 15" steelies into 7R's (heavy) but maybe I should be looking at converting 16" fuchs.

I had 20 mm added to the inside of my 7x16" fuchs.

If you only need to widen inwards and that's the cheapest alternative. With that method you can fine tune maximum width with a spacer, I use a 5 mm to clear my 930 calipers.

[robcf]

Thanks for the kind comments guys, I'm glad you enjoyed the thread.

@McLaren-TAG & aston@ultrasw.c:
Regarding DIY......yeah maybe not. The worst part of the project was using the angle grinder. Its dirty, loud and hot.

@78-911SC & mskala & safe:

If you used my 16" wheel centre, a 5" inner rim and a 2" outer rim in the centre/rim/rim configuration the result would be: 16X7 ET37 with a 138mm back spacing.

If you used my 16" wheel centre, a 5.5" inner rim and a 1.5" outer rim in the centre/rim/rim configuration the result would be: 16X7 ET49.8 with a 151mm back spacing.

BTW I have had a few inquiries regarding what I would charge OR if I could make other people a set of 17" rims. Unfortunately I do not have regular access to a shop and cannot commit to lead times, however, if anyone is interested in this set of wheels send me a PM. I can always make myself another set.

Regards,

Rob

[78-911SC]

Thanks Rob for the info. Like Magnus I'll have turbo brakes on my 70T and I'm worried about clearance on 15" wheels. I have read here that it is possible but I thought if I went with 16" I'd be sure of clearance. They work on my 78SC with 16". Trying to get as much rubber on the rear as possible. Thanks again great thread.

[safe]

Originally Posted by 78-911SC

Thanks Rob for the info. Like Magnus I'll have turbo brakes on my 70T and I'm worried about clearance on 15" wheels. I have read here that it is possible but I thought if I went with 16" I'd be sure of clearance. They work on my 78SC with 16". Trying to get as much rubber on the rear as possible. Thanks again great thread.

I have 930 calipers in the rear on my 69 with 3-piece 15" rims. They uses compomotive centers that are very flat so I need a 10 mm spacer for the center to clear the calipers.

The stock 16" Fuchs have a smaller diameter towards the towards the center, much like a 15". So you have to be careful how you balance the wheels. No wheel weights near the calipers.... I don't think it matters much if you use 15 or 16 inch fuchs, its gonna be tight... 3-piece designs usually have better clearance.

[78-911SC]

Thanks Magnus. Have you had any experience with the original steelies or ones that have been converted to 7R?

[safe]

Originally Posted by 78-911SC

Thanks Magnus. Have you had any experience with the original steelies or ones that have been converted to 7R?

No, sorry!

[BRAIDusa]

Great job Rob. Amazing work. Just wondering if you considered buying new instead of cutting up 30 year old wheels? They do fatigue you know.

[robcf]

Originally Posted by BRAIDusa

Great job Rob. Amazing work. Just wondering if you considered buying new instead of cutting up 30 year old wheels? They do fatigue you know.

Hi Paul, thanks for the kind comments.

I was aware of the risks using the original centers, I researched others experience prior to commencing the project.

Did I consider buying new instead of cutting up 30 year old wheels, absolutely. My preference was new, however, I am price sensitive. Purchasing 3 piece wheels from Rebel Racing or another vendor was also out of the question, after going through this project I can appreciate that their prices are very reasonable when considering simply the cost of the components!

There are currently two price tiers of the replica Fuchs on the market:

Low Cost ($700 - $1600)
Euromiester & Rota

High Cost ($3600 - $6000)
Re-manufactured
Braid
Zuffenhaus
Accumoto

There are many variables which differentiate each manufacturer (performance, size, styling, color, availability, customization) however, the common theme is that all offer a Fuch like replacement.
I was interested at a price point around $2500 where the solution maximized performance at the expense of size, customization and authenticity. If you look at the low cost options listed above the manufacturers trade off customization to reduce cost and maximize volume. The unique aspect about a replica fuch is that most applications are limited to Carrera and Turbo bodies, this presents a mainstream application where product complexity could be reduced.

The above is my opinion, I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing you as your obviously running a viable business. However, if you were to offer a 17" Carrera fitment at the stated price point I would be in line ready for purchase.

[BRAIDusa]

That's great to hear. Not lecturing at all. I didn't pick up on your motivations for going this route but now, after asking the question, I do. Despite running a business that supplies new versions I am first and foremost a Porsche fan and secondly, impossibly inquisitive. The second was my motivation for my question. Thanks for answering so forthrightly.

Originally Posted by robcf

Hi Paul, thanks for the kind comments.

I was aware of the risks using the original centers, I researched others experience prior to commencing the project.

Did I consider buying new instead of cutting up 30 year old wheels, absolutely. My preference was new, however, I am price sensitive. Purchasing 3 piece wheels from Rebel Racing or another vendor was also out of the question, after going through this project I can appreciate that their prices are very reasonable when considering simply the cost of the components!

There are currently two price tiers of the replica Fuchs on the market:

Low Cost ($700 - $1600)
Euromiester & Rota

High Cost ($3600 - $6000)
Re-manufactured
Braid
Zuffenhaus
Accumoto

There are many variables which differentiate each manufacturer (performance, size, styling, color, availability, customization) however, the common theme is that all offer a Fuch like replacement.
I was interested at a price point around $2500 where the solution maximized performance at the expense of size, customization and authenticity. If you look at the low cost options listed above the manufacturers trade off customization to reduce cost and maximize volume. The unique aspect about a replica fuch is that most applications are limited to Carrera and Turbo bodies, this presents a mainstream application where product complexity could be reduced.

The above is my opinion, I don't want to sound like I'm lecturing you as your obviously running a viable business. However, if you were to offer a 17" Carrera fitment at the stated price point I would be in line ready for purchase.

[clutch-monkey]

fantastic result!

if you ever feel like you want to change my 16x7"s to 16x8"s.. PM me hahaha

[robcf]

Originally Posted by BRAIDusa

That's great to hear. Not lecturing at all. I didn't pick up on your motivations for going this route but now, after asking the question, I do. Despite running a business that supplies new versions I am first and foremost a Porsche fan and secondly, impossibly inquisitive. The second was my motivation for my question. Thanks for answering so forthrightly.

No problem Paul, I am also an inquisitive type so I understand where your coming from.

I see on your website that when you originally launched the 17" version of the Braid Fuch it was only available in specific offsets, did this business model make sense? As I outlined in my previous post there could be a market between the current two price tiers, the only enabler that I can identify to reduce cost is reduce complexity (offset, width and finish) and offer a standard Carrera/Turbo fitment option.

You might have to take more risk on stock holding but if the base cost is reduced and the volume increases there could be an increase in return?

BTW thanks for selling these products and supporting the Porsche community!

[BRAIDusa]

Originally Posted by robcf

No problem Paul, I am also an inquisitive type so I understand where your coming from.

I see on your website that when you originally launched the 17" version of the Braid Fuch it was only available in specific offsets, did this business model make sense? As I outlined in my previous post there could be a market between the current two price tiers, the only enabler that I can identify to reduce cost is reduce complexity (offset, width and finish) and offer a standard Carrera/Turbo fitment option.

You might have to take more risk on stock holding but if the base cost is reduced and the volume increases there could be an increase in return?

BTW thanks for selling these products and supporting the Porsche community!

Thanks Rob. The original scope of the project was to produce a 17x9 and 17x11 specifically for the 930. However, once the factory got their head around the market they realized they should develop all widths and offsets to cover more vehicles. We have standard specs for SC and Carrera but we can build any spec to order. As with most BRAID products we prefer to build what the customer wants rather than force them to buy what we predetermined they should want. I think the approach is called "bespoke".

[KTL]

Nice job indeed on the wheels. If you have the need for additional brake clearance and you don't like the idea of using spacers? You can use a 944 Turbo 16x7 Fuchs wheel. The 944T 16x7 has the same "flat" face as the 16x6 wheel. What makes it different is it has a deeper hub section with countersunk lug holes.

You can also throw on the list of custom Fuchs makers Mirage Int'l (jae lee on this forum), Lindsey Racing and Gary Stratton (sonjay on this forum)

None of the above are cheap.