New engine options?

[lightbulb8817]

With the rise in cost for used engines, I feel like there is got to be a tipping point. Are there any companies that are making new flat 6 air cooled engines that will plug into our cars? I feel like if we are spending 14k+ on a 20 year old used motor that likely needs rebuilding, there is a good market for someone to design and manufacture new motors for the same price by now... Thoughts?

[wayner]

Polo comes to mind.
Polo Motors


For the low cost option there is always Subaru...

[tirwin]

Funny... I was talking to a guy the other day who wanted to get rid of an old Mustang. I was tempted for a little while. Half the price of a used 20 year old Porsche flat six gets you a new crate motor of v8 American muscle that you could go crazy with. I know, I know it's blasphemous talk but it is hard to argue with the $/hp math.

I have heard it said that Singer is single-handedly affecting the supply in the used 3.6L market too. Dealing with some of the dismantlers is a total crap shoot. As individual buyers, most of us don't have much recourse if we get screwed over because it's not like we're buying motors all the time. It takes someone who does some volume to have any pull.

Given all that, you would think there would be a market for crate motors with the market interest and the fact that supply is finite. I would buy a crate motor w/ a warranty option over a used motor with questionable history every day of the week and twice on Sunday if that choice was available. Let's say you had a 2.7, 3.0 or 3.2 and were facing an engine rebuild. How many people would do you think go ahead and plunk down the extra cash for a new complete 3.6 crate motor with modern EFI if the cost was marginally more? Seems like a no-brainer to me.

[lightbulb8817]

Based on Polo Motors' website, it looks like they have engines up to 2.8L and is focused on older Porsches.

I don't want to lose the air cool sound, smell, and feel. I'm not particularly interested in swapping in a subaru or chevy motor.

A 3.2 or 3.6L Porsche inspired air cooled flat 6 would be great, with all the known kinks and bugs worked out from the original motors.

[VFR750]

If the flat 6 was even remotely as simple as a v8 i could see a "cheap" crate motor existing. But there is nothing cheap or simple about a Porsche flat-6.

As I tell my friends, I'm rebuilding (6) single cylinder engines.

But seriously, talking to some freinds on the cost of a real v8 engine build, new heads are pretty close to refurbished Porsche heads ~1500. Cams are cheaper, but good roller-rockers add up pretty fast. Rods and pistons are comparable. So in the end a good high performance v8 rebuild is easily over 10k

One of the biggest cost drivers for Porsche engines is the split block and individual cylinder barrels. A v8 block is much cheaper than new (6) individual cylinders mainly due to the production volume.

As for a tipping point, probably never going to happen. There is a very small market verse millions of Chevys, fords, mopars. Not many 911 ever made. Plus, the resale value of a 911 will be hurt tremendously be a non-Porsche engine.

This is a non-trivial impediment. Would they need a license to make brand new Porsche blessed engines. A license to cast just a new aluminum block? New crankshaft forgings. New cast cylinder heads?

Maybe with the advent of 3d printing it is possible for the complex castings.

High speed milling and turning have made it possible for LN nickies cylinders. But they are not cheap!

I'm sure Porsche Classic can find you a new crate engine.

[KNS]

This guy is building a new air cooled engine for 911s:
New Air Cooled Engine - Rennlist Discussion Forums

[Mick_D]

A $40K motor isn't really an option.

[pksystems]

I'm putting a turbo Subaru in my 912. Subaru transmission aswell.

[tirwin]

There is always Instant-G.

[wayner]

Originally Posted by lightbulb8817

With the rise in cost for used engines, I feel like there is got to be a tipping point. Are there any companies that are making new flat 6 air cooled engines that will plug into our cars? I feel like if we are spending 14k+ on a 20 year old used motor that likely needs rebuilding, there is a good market for someone to design and manufacture new motors for the same price by now... Thoughts?

Way back when long hoods were just old cars and the line separating them out as a separate model hadn't been drawn yet, any old 911 (probably up to SC) was said to only be worth what its motor was worth (given that motors in these cars have always been expensive relative to the car).

So, with the value of an old 911 skyrocketing, engines now seem cheap in comparison to the over all cost of the car.

[mattC2993]

The Polo is a 4 cylinder and I hear around 30k+. You could build a hot Type 4 VW engine around 200hp for half that. I'd just spend the money rebuilding the stock motor.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by VFR750

If the flat 6 was even remotely as simple as a v8 i could see a "cheap" crate motor existing. But there is nothing cheap or simple about a Porsche flat-6.

As I tell my friends, I'm rebuilding (6) single cylinder engines.

But seriously, talking to some freinds on the cost of a real v8 engine build, new heads are pretty close to refurbished Porsche heads ~1500. Cams are cheaper, but good roller-rockers add up pretty fast. Rods and pistons are comparable. So in the end a good high performance v8 rebuild is easily over 10k

One of the biggest cost drivers for Porsche engines is the split block and individual cylinder barrels. A v8 block is much cheaper than new (6) individual cylinders mainly due to the production volume.

As for a tipping point, probably never going to happen. There is a very small market verse millions of Chevys, fords, mopars. Not many 911 ever made. Plus, the resale value of a 911 will be hurt tremendously be a non-Porsche engine.

This is a non-trivial impediment. Would they need a license to make brand new Porsche blessed engines. A license to cast just a new aluminum block? New crankshaft forgings. New cast cylinder heads?

Maybe with the advent of 3d printing it is possible for the complex castings.

High speed milling and turning have made it possible for LN nickies cylinders. But they are not cheap!

I'm sure Porsche Classic can find you a new crate engine.

Just for giggles I priced out a better than average Ford crate motor in the $8k range. A good used 3.6 motor is what... probably $13k? I'm sure there is more to it, but back of the napkin analysis says that's a pretty big difference.

There will always be people who value originality. And there will always be people who don't. I am seriously considering pulling my 3.0, storing it and putting a 3.6 in for fun.

Rebuild costs are fairly uniform. I guess I'm thinking more about the starting point just to buy a used motor based on supply and demand. It seems like the starting point is what gets you in the wallet and you are taking on some risk.

It would be nice if you could at least purchase the long block as new and then build it up from there, everything else being equal. At least that takes some risk out of the equation, right?

Good point on the intellectual property rights. Hmmm... is the Porsche engine design patented? Seems like aftermarket cams and pistons would also violate the IPR if true, no?

With the Porsche Classic pricing, I think it would be more cost effective if I machined my own parts from scratch.

[VFR750]

Pater Tim...

No I don't think replica parts require a license. Only if you want to put a Porsche part number on them.

As the cars get more valuable, the engine might be a smaller fraction, but a good one is still 10-15K used, and more if professionally rebuilt. It is the "value added" part of the car equation.

Yes, you could probably mine the ore, smelt it, forge, machine, and assemble it, for less than a new Porsche Classic 911SC 3.0 engine...

[impactbumper]

I would buy a new crate engine from Porsche if they had any

[canamfan]

Has anyone ever put a Lycoming, Continental or Rotax engine in their 911? I'd like to see that experiment. Lots of those around, new or used.

[Flieger]

Vision Motorsports in Orange County has crate motors.

[wayner]

My mechanic says a rebuild will last 40 years...the way we drive them (and by that he means hard).

I think that is good value.

While pricey, I think the only way to get something cheaper is to source something mass produced from some other vehicle rather than tooling up to make a replica, (which is why suby motors are so popular since amazingly they have the right layout)...but now the whole car is just cheaper.

[tcar]

Originally Posted by canamfan

Has anyone ever put a Lycoming, Continental or Rotax engine in their 911? I'd like to see that experiment. Lots of those around, new or used.

They are designed to run at a steady 2800 RPM or so.

Not 1000 - 6000 RPM multiple times per minute.

Not sure they would work well.

New, they are VERY expensive.

Used???

[nota]

Originally Posted by tcar

They are designed to run at a steady 2800 RPM or so.

Not 1000 - 6000 RPM multiple times per minute.

Not sure they would work well.

New, they are VERY expensive.

Used???

don't they time out ? piston aircraft motors
ie too many hours and they must be junked
or is that just to over/haul time and no total ?

[Kevin Saunders]

A lot of 911's I see for sale mention that they have matching number engines. I know this is a big issue with muscle cars etc. Perhaps a rebuild is the best route if you want to retain value.