The next big thing....3.0 EFI/ITB w/Rasant engine management

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by flyn-hawn

Al,

Great project, my question is, if you are running headers how are you going to use the backdated heat?

Dave

Good eye Dave,
The headers are part of the test setup that I use on many engine builds. After building, I install the engine on my test stand and run it in and tune it up. The end user is installing SSIs on this engine.

Here is the same setup being used on a previous engine and test run.............

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWB99lddFew

regards,
al

[flyn-hawn]

That makes sense, I thought you had some new trick to run heat without heat exchangers. Thanks for clarifying

[acme911]

Originally Posted by flyn-hawn

That makes sense, I thought you had some new trick to run heat without heat exchangers. Thanks for clarifying

This is what I'll be using: 1 5/8 od B&B with a GT3 center muffler.

Andy

[angelny911]

chime

[al lkosmal]

I moved the engine to the test stand...The Rasant Engine management system is now installed and we're wired and plumbed and ready to fire with the following exceptions.......

IAT sensor install ....the IAT sensor is intended to be installed in a common plenum....with ITBs with no common plenum, i will have to be creative..........

The laptop that I use for tuning requires some updating to be compatible with the AEM Infinity ECU.............

Install the latest tuning file................

Add fuel & oil

More ....tomorrow.....

[tirwin]

Looking good! I'm expecting a video of course...

[al lkosmal]

Tim,
Couple of last minute details to work out....and then.....fire.
regards,
al

[preston_brown]

What will you do for filters? I used the filter housing as a handy place to put a hole to install a grommet for my IAT on my ITB MS3X install.

[al lkosmal]

Pipercross filter socks will be used. i will make a cool bracket to mount the sensor in the appropriate location, while maintaining ITB functionality.

regards,
al

PS: others have taken this approach and, if required, have added a "rainshield" to the underside of the decklid...maintaining ...functionality and ITB/retro good looks, while increasing rain protection...if required.

[Ferrino]

Does it make much difference where you position the IAT sensor? I mean - temps should be pretty similar whether it's right at the bellmouth, compared to in the general vicinity of the intakes?

[al lkosmal]

Originally Posted by Ferrino

Does it make much difference where you position the IAT sensor? I mean - temps should be pretty similar whether it's right at the bellmouth, compared to in the general vicinity of the intakes?

agreed.........

[Tippy]

Originally Posted by Ferrino

Does it make much difference where you position the IAT sensor? I mean - temps should be pretty similar whether it's right at the bellmouth, compared to in the general vicinity of the intakes?

A bigger problem is keeping the IAT from getting heatsoaked. That's where I'd figure out where the best place to measure air temps without enduring heatsoak.

Heatsoaks causes lean restarts and wandering idle RPM's. You can tune it out, but to me, it's better to find a spot that prevents it.

[al lkosmal]

Yes...thanks. Seems like a non-issue.

[Cook&Dunning]

Al - first off that is a beautiful engine - amazing work. I hope when I retire out west in a couple of years I can bring the "Cruddler" down to your place to work your magic on it's 3.2. I just have a question on the exhaust and the general upkeep of this fuel injection system. Will the final product be tune it and forget it - meaning with the fuel infection and software will it operate like a modern fuel injected car? and secondly - I know this is probably not possible, but I suspect the test exhaust set up will have plenty of mid range torgue - my question is - with the proposed GT3 center muffler I wonder if it is much too free flowing for the application. Can the software deal with such a large change in exhaust set up? Has anyone run before and after torque / hp dyno runs? Not questioning your engine building skills, more interested in fuel injection system and exhaust upgrade Tq/Hp numbers comparo. Thanks

[acme911]

Originally Posted by Cook&Dunning

Al - first off that is a beautiful engine - amazing work. I hope when I retire out west in a couple of years I can bring the "Cruddler" down to your place to work your magic on it's 3.2. I just have a question on the exhaust and the general upkeep of this fuel injection system. Will the final product be tune it and forget it - meaning with the fuel infection and software will it operate like a modern fuel injected car? and secondly - I know this is probably not possible, but I suspect the test exhaust set up will have plenty of mid range torgue - my question is - with the proposed GT3 center muffler I wonder if it is much too free flowing for the application. Can the software deal with such a large change in exhaust set up? Has anyone run before and after torque / hp dyno runs? Not questioning your engine building skills, more interested in fuel injection system and exhaust upgrade Tq/Hp numbers comparo. Thanks

Hi, If you look at Al's last pic posted you'll see that he is using aftermarket headers and muffler. We talked this over and the two exhaust systems are similar.

Engine is set up for Mid Range torque, Canyon Carver.

As for Dyno numbers this will be done after I have installed it. The engine will be replacing a stock 2.7

Engine was spec'd to be a reliable, modern daily driver.

After Andrew Darud posted his Rasant management system I was lucky enough to have peaked Al's interest in building the engine utilizing the Rasant kit. As Al has been saying it is going to be a very sweet Hot rod engine for the street.

Andrew's kit pulls together proven components from various manufacturers. He and Al are great guys to deal with.

Andy

[jpnovak]

Al, You can make your own IAT using a single open element NTC thermistor. These are commonly available with different background resistance to match the calibration for the stock sensor in the Rasant system. I assume AEM has a calibration page to generate your own curve should you think outside the box.

The small thermistor is easily mounted inside your filter setup. This is how I ran for years with UNI filters directly mounted on my ITB stacks. The sensor could not heat soak as it was isolated from the system. You can run the wire inside the rubber sealing edge.

For the education of everyone here. IAT placement does make a difference and depends on the algorithm used in the ECU. Most systems are designed around placement in ambient airflow. NA cars typically benefit from measuring ambient airflow temperature - either mounted in the engine bay next to cool air or directly in the intake tract (intake pipe, manifold, etc). In my experience the temperature differential between ambient and intake measurements are negligible on a NA car. This is especially true in a 911 where several thousand L/min of airflow exchange happen in the engine bay thanks to that marvelous whhhrrriiiinnnnnggg sound.

boosted cars typically require manifold mounted temperature measurements due to the heating effect of compressing the inlet air. In this case, you have to apply a temperature correction to the fueling curve. The amount of correction is determined by how efficient your charge cooling is. And yes, heat soak can make a difference in running and hot start.

Al is doing a great job. I am interested to hear his comments about tuning and software interface compared to the other systems he has worked with.

[tirwin]

Originally Posted by jpnovak

Al is doing a great job. I am interested to hear his comments about tuning and software interface compared to the other systems he has worked with.

Great explanation, Jaime.

I'm very interested in the interface too. In fact, I was going to ask Al to post some pics of the tuning screens.

[al lkosmal]

Good morning everybody and thanks for checking in...

Jamie...greetings. Yes, thank you...I have used thermistors for temp sensors with M'squirt systems and I've considered going that route.

I am also interested in the user interface....and expect that we'll be discussing that aspect shortly. I will post screens as I go. I have successfully installed the AEM software on my laptop and I have the interface layout up on the PC....also applied power to the ECU...and a click of the AEM relay signifies that the ECU is active. However, I have a USB connection error that is preventing the ECU from communicating with the PC. Andrew and I are working on that and should have it solved this morning and then on to the next step..........last minute details. Stay tuned...I'll be back....

Note: I have grilles to ship today and another 3.0 on the engine stand that needs some CIS love...so it may be a day or two....work,work,work........but it is...fun.

regards,
al

[al lkosmal]

I did get some time in today....and it was a good time. The communication issue turned out to be a simple driver issue.....

PROs: once loaded, the program came alive. I followed Andrews (Rasant) install instructions and was able to verify that the engine configuration was correct (pre-loaded by Andrew), set and verify the timing and adjust and verify the fuel pressure............these are the basic building blocks to first fire-up.... and the beginning of tuning. Andrew has also pre-loaded fuel/ignition maps based on the system in his car...and I will receive the latest version from him. The AEM interface is relatively straightforward for these initial inputs and the terminology is the same/similar to other systems i've used..........while i haven't spent much time with the dashboard...it does seem to contain all of the bells and whistles and looks very cool to boot...and i expect that it can be configured to meet the end users requirements/aesthetics, etc.

These are bad pix taken directly from my laptop screen...but you get the idea...





Note: The only con today....My stock Bosch fuel pump is from a mid-80s Carrera. I've used this fuel pump countless times ...it works great.....however, the capacity of my pump seemed to exceed the ability of the very nice Summit regulator to regulate and I could not adjust the fuel pressure below 70 psi.....yikes...the requirement for EFI is 40-ish psi and the Rasant instructions call for 39.2.....I had to significantly reduce fuel pump output to meet the spec. I'll have to check into this to verify the cause of the issue.

[David Borden]

Al, what summit regulator are you using? I have the black return style on another project with a 255lph pump and it has no issue at all. Summit Racing® Aluminum Fuel Pressure Regulators SUM-220066 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

David