What's it worth? Mongrel 1972 911.

[Jack Olsen]

I'm not selling my car. But since values on air-cooled 911s have gone up, I'm thinking about getting some kind of agreed-value insurance policy for it. The trick with my situation is that I can't look at stock 1972 911T values, since my car is heavily modified. It has fiberglass body parts, a 1995 engine, and other components from other years. (Complete data here).

The shorthand description would be:

1972 tub
1995 engine
1977 Magnesium 915 with close-ratio gearsets
1986 930 brakes
Numerous suspension upgrades including custom components, ERP stuff, Elephant stuff, Wevo stuff, including Öhlins shocks in back and JRZs in front.
9.5x11x17 Fuchs-centered wheels

You could make the argument that a modified car is worth less than an original one -- which I have no issue with. But in my case, I have to think about what I would have to do to re-create mine (if it were lost), and I'm in the dark with that in terms of where today's chassis and parts prices are. So in one sense, there are two values: 'what it would sell for' and 'what it would cost to re-create.'

Here are some recent pictures, which don't have much to do with value -- but maybe demonstrate just how bummed out this particular owner would be if he lost his car.

Any ballpark numbers?

[wayner]

I think that Jermemy's 74 would be a good start. Similar engine and body mods

http://bringatrailer.com/listing/1974-porsche-911/

(I never get tired of seeing your pictures Jack)

[Reiver]

Jack,
That's a tough one. All here know what you've done to the car and that is something special.

A knowledgeable pro appraiser (AAG for example) that would come to you, take pics and inspect your documents would give you a proper number as they rate it against 'similar' builds and what they go for on the market today. The 'inspector' on site does not give you the number...his report with pics is forwarded to home station where the analyst (that only deals with auctions/sales etc.) does the comparative analysis. Then they send you the documents that can be used for sale or insurance purposes.
That is the only way I know of coming up with a fair market price.
OTOH, a simple rule of thumb is...what would it cost you to replace it?

[1990C4S]

My first thought was $75k....I think that is the low end.

[blucille]

$150-$225k based on comparable at Autokennel for instance, and also based on the amount of marketing/publicity the car has earned.

72's always bring in extra $$$

[tdw28210]

$80k to $100k to replace/rebuild based on current part prices and labor in Cali. Not sure how you factor in the "famous-ness", it at all.

[faverymi]

I think your car is tremendously iconic. Has added value by means of the owner. Has set a benchmark.
If people pay top dollars for "urban outlaws " I see no reason why you shouldn't get top of the market.
Don't sell yourself short Jack. Let the hammer dictate the value

[wayner]

I agree with that!!

[James Brown]

too many mods, ill take it and some how, try to bring it back to stock but it will cost you

[rusnak]

Maybe I'm biased. But this is a Porsche chat board.

I'd say closer to One Hundred Thousand Dol-arsss......

[tirwin]

I'm not in the same league as you, Jack but I've been in a similar situation recently.

My concern is that values of the cars are appreciating in general and if I had to go find an equivalent replacement today, I'm not sure the current agreed value on my policy would cover it. Absolutely, the value of the car as it sits today and replacement costs are not the same thing. It is a very similar situation with homeowner's insurance. Many homeowner's policies are written against a dollar value of the property and not the actual replacement cost.

I think getting an appraisal is a good idea. If you have documents that show what you've invested that is great. I scan every receipt that I spend on the car. Don't forget to estimate your labor. Armed with that information, I would then talk to an insurer and see what they say. Some may have stipulations that specifically prohibit tracking. At some dollar figure, I guess they start expecting that the car is a garage queen. :-/

[tobluforu]

When I insured my 72 state farm made me send them numerous pics of my car along with other 72's that were selling or had sold within the past 6 months. Even then they low balled me. But we finally agreed on a price. Its not what I thought its worth, but for the time being it will do until I re-insure it. So I'm guessing a lot has to do with what company you will be using.
They wanted to know if mine was modified, which it is, but they never asked or wanted any receipts showing how much I have dumped into it. It was all based on what they thought it was worth, god only knows what metrics they use because it was like they didn't even look at all the cars I sent them.

[vintagecarlover]

Jacks car has had 10 times the press as any magnus's cars. Only a portion of black beauty II's value is in parts and labor to build. The right auction with publicity it should sell equal to that or more than the 300k magnus's mutt/mongrol that frankly can't hold a functional candle to that black beauty. Way more car, pedigree, one yr production 72, has one color paint, pleaaase!!

[RetroSC]

Jack, If you have absolutely no intent to sell, then I'd only insure it for build cost. No reason for you to have to pay a premium on it's fame status if you never plan to cash in on that.

A good 72 chassis will be hard to find, so figure that in.. $125K seems like a safe number

[JeremyD]

probably 125-150K to sell (it is a long nose and iconic) - probably close to 100K to recreate - $75K if you do most of the work.

I was happy with the price that I received for my car - I have seen similar cars go for between $60 and 80K - mine was a good color.

[88911coupe]

I think you'd have to start with the value of an unmodified 72 and work up/down from there. Not sure how much Jack's very well deserved iconic status in the Porsche community will come into play from the perspective of insured value. Don't get me wrong...it would substantially impact what he could sell the car for, which is a little different than what we are discussing here. What would be useful is to find documented sales of "comparable" cars as a reference or starting point. Would a company that specializes in classic car insurance be a good place to start?

[gerben1986]

I bring my 911 every 3 year to a assesor/estimator/someone who gives a valuation (don't know the correct English word for it).
He gives a quote which is used by the insurance company to base there insurance on.

Maybe that's the way for you to go? Those guys see a lot of cars (especially the classic-cars) and can compare them and give you an "what's it worth"-price based on arguments and evidence.

[Matt Monson]

You could sell it for 1/4 million. Insure it for half that.

[jac1976]

It seems to me that whether a company insures the car for market value or cost to replace, they should provide you with whatever metrics they use to arrive at a number. Obviously you will do your due diligence in arriving at a number, so it only seems reasonable for the insurer to do the same. To that end, asking a company to reveal other modified cars and their policies seems justifiable. However, even if the names and other pertinent information/identifiers of the insured are hidden, I think this is unlikely to occur and, for all I know, may be illegal.

If I recall correctly, the discussed subject is BBII. Perhaps the actual cost or premium to replace BBI could be used to arrive at a number, understanding that many parts were transferred to the current car.

I think maintaining an attache of all things relevant to BBII is essential:

All articles in print or on the web regarding BBII
All threads referencing the car
Current market values of 1972 911s (I would include information illustrating the appreciation of these cars over the past 5 years with an eye toward projected appreciation)
Actual selling prices of both original and modified 911s
Actual selling prices for the motor
Actual selling prices for all modifications
Labor costs (I would include this even though you do your own work)

Of course, there are many other variables...
but I think what cannot be overemphasized is the old adage "something is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it" may actually work to your advantage.

The Porsche community is relatively tight and very discerning. Seeing as that if you were selling your car or looking to replace it, you would likely do so within this community, it only stands to reason that this community dictate the value of the car. Thus, any and all input from the collective, be it Pelican, Rennlist, Early 911S Registry, R Gruppe, private collectors and racers, should be taken into consideration when determining "what's it worth."

[twistoffat]

The car is worth either the lower of the sale price of the replacement price. In this case I´d say both are close to the sum of the individual parts stripped for sale. How much are the Tub engine transmission and fuchs wheels worth. Thats where most of the value is. I´m sure the Jack Olsen car has a certain plus that adds value but not like for example the name Mcqueen( even though his 1.9m Turbo wasn´t better than others of that era). Jacks car is lovely and I´m sure is with more to him than anyone else......unfortunately Insurance values don´t often meet our expectations.