AC Redo – Some Questions
 

I've read through many AC threads and decided to take the plunge. I Just want a working AC without replacing everything. Thought was to remove, inspect, clean/flush, reinstall. Anything defective would be replaced. At the end, I’ll bring it to a shop for vacuum and charging.

I took everything out other than the hoses. Pics below.


I'm in the middle of repairing, cleaning, flushing, etc.

Here are some questions with Pics:

Rear Condenser: I flushed it with AC Pro - really nasty black fluid came out. Cleaned the exterior. No noticeable signs of damage. One row of fins is flattened tight. It would be very tedious to straighten. Would this really have a noticeable impact ? Or should I just leave it alone and reinstall ?


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458507707.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458507775.jpg

Front Evaporator: Flushed and cleaned. Looks like it’s in good condition. Should I replace it with the new Kuehl Evap or reuse. I plan on redoing the Evap box with new foam insulation as per other pelican Threads. The blower fan is in good working condition and has been cleaned and oiled. I will obviously install a new Expansion Valve as well – not sure where to find new tar. Any suggestions?

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Compressor: Nippondenso. I cleaned it – Did NOT flush. No noticeable signs of leaks, clutch works fine, turns smoothly. I don’t think the compressor was the problem but not sure if I should drop the $ on a new one. But if the other components had dirty fluid, I’m sure the compressor does as well. If I can’t flush, how do I clean it out without taking it apart ? (Don’t want to do a rebuild)

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Front Condenser: Here’s the old one. Replacing it with a new Kuehl.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458508049.jpg


Bonus:

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Front Blower Motor: Motor was fried and had a mouse nest. Will replace the motor and fan.

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I did my 84 about 3 years ago. If you are converting to r134a, you should really go ahead and replace the hoses too, despite the advice that you will shortly get from "he-who-pollutes-all-a/c-threads-on-Pelican".

I ended up with new front condenser, new evaporator and new hoses at my first go around. My compressor failed later (nose seal leak), so now it is all less than 3 years old. Used it last week for the first time since last October, works fine.

How do you know it was a mouse nest? You have read some old AC threads. You must know this debris could simply be from fines caused by reversing the gasses.

Seriously, nice leg/grunt work. A couple of goodies from GT will make a world of difference.

I am in northern Ohio. If there is ONE thing I could/would buy from Charlie it would be the whup ass evap blower. Now I know it may not be a game changer but if the cool air moves plenty, it makes a difference.

He has been throttled. Trust me. He has been a delight since the the ultimatum was delivered to him. Straight forward sensible posts outside the AC realm.

If I am wrong, we only have minutes....................

Recommend replacing the original hoses, yes this part stinks, with new barrier hoses, don't forget the receiver drier. The more Kuel/Griffiths parts you can budget, the happier you'll be. Great stuff.

Just don't have the time to replace the hoses - barring a leak. Just going to flush them well. New Dryer is in sitting in the box.

The immediate need to know is, assuming the rear condenser and original Evap are cleaned and not leaking, is it worth the $ to change ? I'm in NY and the top stays down most of the time but there are definitely times I need some cold air. I'm not looking for the best system, just a satisfactory one.

The front blower is put back together and is blowing strong. I don't think airflow into the cabin will be a problem so no need for a new motor.

Here's a better shot of the cleaned Evap and the burnt our front blower motor.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458516493.jpg
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Don't change a thing. If your system is functioning correctly, and that is a challenge when you think about the age, the system is quite acceptable.

It will never kick ass, it will kick knee caps. In New York/Ohio it is quite adequate. Wimpy, yep. Inadequate, no.

Deep south guys see it differently because it is different. Ronnies930 posted a pic where his interior headliner was 400+ degrees with his car in the sun in Texas. Deep heat soak, everything. We don't have that. We might have 140-160F if parts are left to bake.

Not saying your time is not short but don't be saying you don't have time to replace the hoses.

You don't have to replace them. Perfectly ok.

However, the car is 33 years old. You got some big meeting you have to drive the car to? Like, you have an appointment that prohibits the weekend's worth of work required to change the hoses?

Drive your driver. Don't bull**** bull****ters. We know the difference between fact and fiction.

Just saying. Not judging.

Agreed. May/June through September I only need the AC rainy days, when stuck in traffic and on long rides where the wife wants the top up.

When I got the car, the system barely got "less warm", not really cool. I've thrown some cans at it over the last 2 summers and got barely something out of her. Put the AC on this winter's project list.

With the original hoses in my '84, a fresh charge would bleed through the 30 year old hoses in the course of 6 months. I think not doing hoses now while you already have it apart is false economy. You will likely be charging it yearly. Similar thoughts on the 30 year old compressor. I figured mine would be fine, ended up having to replace it after a year and a half anyway.

The condensers and evaporator? They don't really age. No reason to do them. But hoses get old, and the compressor has moving parts. I'd do both of those now.

Arne2 - thanks and I hear you - At least two of the hoses (to the rear condenser) have been replaced. I'll take a look at the others.

Here's a pic of the rear condenser hose - the part numbers are 91157315305 and 91157315003 - Seems to be barrier hose - Maybe I'll get lucky and find they all have been replaced.

Edit: Add this to the list: 911-573-152-03:: I can't see the numbers to the remaining hoses but the fittings all look identical - my guess is I just got lucky.

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Admire your dedication to making everything sound. I'd imagine you'll be rewarded with a nice AC system. If anything goes wrong, knowing every detail prior to reinstalling will lend to quick diagnosing and repair.

Hi Ramp,
I'm not sure if you said whether you are using r134. If you are, you need compatible o-rings, oil, (probably ester) and service fittings. It sounds like 2 of the 5 hoses are newer, so you only need to change 3 more to have a complete refurb of the hoses and other components. With the items you have already disconnected, it should only be 3-4 hours on hoses.
Best of luck,
Dave

While the consensus seems to be replace all hoses can someone suggest the best hoses and a approximate cost for a full set of hoses. I think I remember somewhere that the new hoses are a smaller diameter. Can anyone confirm?

Correct Bob (though might have been 450 degrees - will have to check pic :)), butt you neglected to mention the pics of the passenger's seat (about 45 degrees), the headliner (lower 50s), and the center vents (27.8 degrees), when parked & idling in my mid 90s temp garage, following errand running the the hot sun, with the Mighty Meatlocker Turbo's, T-Rex a/c hammering away, Bro!!!

PS - should I post the pic of my "smuggler's box" treatment? Some folks might be Jonesing for a review! :D

Yes, I'll be running r134. I bought a box of the green nitrile O-rings. I confirmed last night that three hoses are barrier - the fittings on the remaining 2 look identical so chances are they have been replaced as well - I'll clean and confirm part numbers in the next day or so.

Thoughts on "cleaning out the compressor" ?? Can I run clean oil through it ? If so, which oil ?

Air con
 

Thank you Ramp, for all those clear photos great,project.
This is a photo off oil ,i purchased while back, i have not used it yet
going to soon ,supposed to be the correct for this,has the proper tip for filling,regards.http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458559047.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458559094.jpg

Griffiths sells individual hoses as well as kits. So does our host.

https://griffiths.com/porsche/air-conditioning/911-930/barrier-hoses/porsche-911-ac-barrier-hoses/

Thanks - so, just fill the compressor with PAG oil, turn it over a bunch by hand, drain the oil, repeat until the oil comes out clean - kinda like a manual flush ?

If your compressor is the original 30+ year old unit I suspect you will get a few months of use out of it before the nose seal blows or the entire compressor gives up. They are not cheap, so it is a tough choice.

As for the hoses, if they have not been replaced, you can just pull them and take them to a local AC specialist shop and they will re-use the old ends and replace the rubber hose. That only works if the threads are in good shape.

I bought the dual condenser, new evaporator and hoses for my AC improvement. That was 10 years ago and it is the best thing I ever did for my 911. I can drive it on any hot day and be comfortable.

Good luck with your rebuild. It is rewarding to have decent AC.

That's what happened to mine, the nose seal gave up 9 months after I got done with the rest. At this age, I'd probably replace it. The Denso 'remanufactured' cpmpressors (in a Denso labeled box) are actually brand new, and not that hard to find. I'd recommend it.

Given that my AC requirements are more severe as I live in the desert Southwest where we can experience daily high temps of over 100* F for weeks at a time, I opted to do the full Griffiths upgrade on my '88 Carrera coupe. It took my ace technician 18 hours to replace all the hoses with the barrier version, install new compressor, evaporator, front condensor, add the two additional condensors and fans in the left rear fender and all the other assorted bit and pieces. Griffiths says 22 hours is the norm. Expensive, yes. But I now have a car that I drive year round with an AC that come close to making ice cubes. If I was living in more temperate climes I could probably gotten by with a less extensive upgrade. R-12 is still available if your are willing to pay the price. New barrier hoses seemed a better choice.

The compressor is a Nippondenso. Is there a way to guesstimate its age ? It appears that most - if not all- my hoses have been replaced with barrier hoses. So, there's a chance this is not the original compressor.

just personal opinion here - I'd proceed with hose replacement, because of 2 factors - first, age - second, R134a molecules are (seriously) smaller than the R12 the hoses were designed for - and the new refrigerant will slowly leak through the standard rubber a/c hoses - won't completely discharge, but over winter it'll go down to static charge in the 50# range when it needs to be well above that (depending on resting temperatures) - plus it would be a great idea to break open every fitting and replace o-rings - all of them at every fitting - after all these years they're old, flattened, and will leak with 124a refrigerant.

Beautiful job - really great work - congrats!! Enjoy the cool when it's back running - you'll love it!!

strongly agree with this, and what you are doing.
if you or anyone does not pull all the hoses out you need to check for a leak in the system before removing anything.
I found both my long hoses had leaks.

my suggestion for an AC rebuild.
just replace ALL the hoses.
pull all the coils, have them pressure checked then flush.
replace dryer and TXV

Way to dive in Ramp! The fuzzball over the front condenser... that's a beautiful find. Taking it all apart is the way to go.

I know somewhere in the late '80s Porsche added an in-line fuse to the front condenser blower motor. If your '87 doesn't have one already that's a good "while you're in there" addition. Prevents a fire hazard if the motor seizes. There have been a few Pelicans that have posted pictures of their car after such a fire.

Part #: PEL-612-077-00

Or you can of course make your own.

-T

Yep. Ramp ain't messing around.

In your rebuild thread I may have posted a factory oil distribution chart for projects like this. I think I can find it and I will look in the 3.2 workshop manuals. Everything is clean and empty so the oil is best distributed "now" into the individual pieces when reassembled. It's nothing earth shattering but an oz here and two oz's there. That sort of thing. Also, what oil will be used?

I also remember the "fines" discussion. I think you may as well. The issue was "black stuff" is bad. Ramp has seen black stuff. You saw no black stuff when you cleaned/drained your components. If I recall, the black stuff is from the compressor if it is failing.

Might be money well spent to snag another compressor. Just throwing it out there.

Bob... u remain immortalized for the "check bottom of the evap" which in my case revealed the major death-cause of my AC.

"Fines" were indeed much discussed. Hose ends, evap and condensers were all q-tip swabbed. As you & I recall, those were all clean. It was the drier portals that showed a black, sooty-like substance on the swaps... leading me to cut the drier in half for entertainment. Bottom of drier chamber contains desiccant. Top half or so is an open chamber. Inside that top area, the lining of the chamber was coated with the black, sooty-like stuff.

On the subject of "black stuff" being associated to compressor failure... my system worked very well until about 9 months after my AC rebuild/post. Then the system failed rather quickly. With all things but the compressor having been attended in the rebuild, I went to it first. Oil showed on the shaft so... Replaced the shaft-seal and system worked for a short while... made an odd noise... and I shut it down. Not a big deal with winter on hand. (In a few weeks as temps rise, I'll be forced to pull the compressor to sort that out.)

Goes to show how important it is to cover EVERY component of these systems... which is why I commented on Ramp's comprehensive approach. I failed to attend my compressor when all else was apart... and now am headed for a return trip.

Agreed... with everything clean, now Ramp can very accurately load the oil. Have to be clear on whether measurement is fluid or by weight.

Ramp, very curious to see what your pressures are and what vent temp you arrive at. Given your approach, you should do well.

This AC thread has a nice patina to it so far. Where's MONSTERON?! :D

Uhhhh, check post #15, bisch!!! :D

PS - I instantly though of you when the OP posted the pics of the animal leavings on the evap and front condenser . . . I said to myself, "dude has nothing on the shag carpet that Karl found growing on the bottom of his car's evaporator! :eek:"!


:eek: :eek: :eek:

Thanks for all the support guys. Unfortunately for me, this is turning into a bit larger than expected with today's finds. Looks like I may need to take the consensus approach and replace the lines.

Could use some help figuring this out. If you recall, three of my hoses have part numbers (91157315305, 91157315003, 911-573-152-03) which all seem to be new barrier hoses, BUT, the other end of at least 2 of them have a sequence in blue ink as follows : Codan 150 14 1986 - See pic. My initial reaction was these are 1986 original hoses.

Thoughts on whether these hoses are original or replaced barrier hoses.
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458606578.jpg
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458606646.jpg

Next issue, as I was checking around, look what I found. See next pic. I am coming to grips with having to replace the lines BUT I still want to know if these hoses are the new barrier or are original.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458606626.jpg

ALSO, are there any threads with pics that detail the hose replacement ? It looks pretty darn tight feeding them around stuff and do I need to take off the side rockers ? It looks like I also need to take off the ground guard under the steering column ! One issue at a time I don't mind, but my to do list is now going onto page 3.

Bonus: I thought I would put this up for future reference. I plan on replacing the Thermostat copper guide tube with a new piece sourced from the local hobby shop - they use them for propeller shafts in remote controlled boats.

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http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458606873.jpg

Self explanatory black stuff
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1458607641.jpg

^^^

Looks about like the contents of the spittoon at Bob's shop, and/or Karl's bong water!!!

LOL http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gifhttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat3.gif

Bong water left. Spittoon right.

This is good info provided by Ramp.

Guessing right is rear and left is front condenser?

This may end up to be a really informative thread.

I would suggest sleeping on things and then consider a new compressor. I can't say this is your problem (you had a killer mouse nest). However, GT wants maybe $800-ish for a wizz bang upgrade to the one you have.

Ouch. But you will be set - long time.

Are you going with R134 or R12? Charlie can load oil.

Don't skimp. Steal from 401k. Just a hint. It is that important. Your kids don't really need college this year.

Left is rear condenser, right is Evap.

Will be using R134.

Going to order new hoses and in the meantime finish off the reconditioning of the blowers, rear condenser and Evap box. Will post pics of the finished Evap box this weekend.

HA! #15... classic U & Bob Rono! I've been forum AWOL for a while and so missing all the poetry you guys create. Is good to be back in the land of MONSTERS. http://forums.pelicanparts.com/support/smileys/wat6.gif

Hoses are straight forward to replace Ramp. The higher you get your car the easier it is to make swaps. Having a car overhead while standing is best due to access. To swap hose while laying on your back... worst program possible---slows everything up.

Will suggest comparing old hose length and fitting orientation to new hose before making swaps so you know what your dealing with in advance of install. Most difficult hose area is passage to/from front condenser depending on what your car has in wheel well. Takes under an hour to extract old hose. Little more than an hour to swap new in with car overhead. Martini break included. Am not sure if your hose is orig or new barrier from markings. Hose that's split open... is that from rot or a road slash?

Not sure what to say about "spitton & bong" water. My immediate reaction... compressor is bad (but perhaps that's Rono's blood.) Charlie should chime in on that stuff... He's probably seen it time & time again.

Very admirable project. Moreso that you are photodoc'ing and posting. Joking around as we tend does not discount the excellent info in your pics and the experience you share. Compliments Ramp.

Discseven:

This is very helpful, thanks.

Replacing the hoses makes this a much bigger project that I will struggle finding time to complete - Spring is here and I want the car back up (I meant to start in January but ....)

I'll follow your hose advise and remove/replace one at a time.

I bought a lift a few years ago and would NOT have attempted this with out it. One of my best buys ever. Not enough room to stand but can sit very nicely on a rolling stool with car overhead.

The rip looks like a nice even cut - not sure from what. The rubber is not new but it's not rotten either.

I'll revisit the compressor issue later and start looking at options.

The front driver fender has a washer tank that looks like it may need to come out to feed those lines through.

Q1: Do I need to take off the side rocker panels ?
Q2: Do I need to remove the guard plate that sits below the steering rack ?

P.S. - I'm pretty sure the black stuff is bong juice from recycling cabin air. ;)

Best AC thread ever! Thanks to the brave souls who convinced our generous host to clamp down on the road noise. I'm not getting confused. Thanks and will apply this great learning when I get my lift installed.