Interesting thing I learned about the 996 and the track last weekend...

[speeder]

Jack, Can you, (or anyone else), identify the cars on the left hand side of that ad? ("Racing is the ultimate test")

I do not recognize them as Porsches, and the top left one definitely pre-dates the company, (founded in 1948). That is a beautiful ad, they used to have the best ads. I would also like to know what the exact variants of the 917 and other car are. TIA.

[Jim Garfield]

Denis, the silver one mid left is the 4WD Cisitalia Type 360,
the bottom # 14 is the F1 car (Type 718?), the top left
I'm not sure. The white and red car in the middle is
a 908 long tail, # 12 a 908/3 Targa Florio car, & # 23
is the Elford/Attwater 917K Salzburg car. The silver car
mid bottom I think is an RS coupe or the GTL Carrera and
mid top I think is the W-RS Grossmutter hillclimb car.

[Tinker]

I like the 996. A friend has an 2001 that I spent some time in at a slalom. For a street legal car with all the amenities, I was impressed by its grip and brakes. Yes, it does understeer, but I bet with some suspension tweeks that could be dialed out.

I thought I read somewhere Porsche is sending a street legal GT3 model our way this year. Now if this model has a motor similar in design to the race version, I bet some of you might change your tune.

Tinker

[eion]

Originally posted by Tinker
Now if this model has a motor similar in design to the race version, I bet some of you might change your tune.

But if it did, it would be based around the 993 block, wouldn't it?

[speeder]

Thanks, Jim. They are all very beautiful.

[YTNUKLR]

The cars in the ad are (counter-clockwise from top left):
-191X Skala built by Ferdinand Porsche
-Auto Union? Cisitalia 4WD racer from the '30s?
-1962? 802? F1 car driven by Dan Gurney (he won some race)
-The next is either an Abarth-Carrera Coupe or a late '50s 718 Coupe (yes, they made one/a few of those!)
-A silver '73 911T/E/S Coupe
-A pre-'74 914
-Salzburg 917K 1970 LeMans winner
-Gulf 908/3 from 1969?
-The white car is a 917 Langheck('LH'; long-tail) from 1970-ish
-And, at the very top, close to the left, RS61 #718-047, called the W-RS Spyder and was nicknamed "Grossmutter"(Grandmother) because it just kept on getting modified. In 1963, they put the 771 flat-8 in it!

Those were the days! We will look back and the 996's will be a twinkle in the distance.

[911jon]

Indeed Wayne, the weakness of the 996 motor is well known. And I would agree that it is wet-sumped, however current Porsche marketing blurb describes it.

I can only sadly agree with many of the above comments. My view is that the good Dr's Ferry and Ferdinand are currently turning (about 7000rpm, I would say) in their graves, as the beancounters smash the design/engineering purity that made Porsche such a special company from it's inception until the mid-90's. Weideking seems to have conveniently forgotten this illustrious past, and the efforts of the brilliant and often fanatical engineers (especially Ferdinand Piech, in my view) who made it possible. I would love to ask Piech his views on this.

The real difference for me is that the 911 (to include 964 and 993) was designed, engineered and handbuilt to be as good a car as Porsche could make it, with a racing programme as an integral part of the development process. Then Porsche decided how much they could sell them for.

The 996 is automotive "white goods", reverse engineered for profitability from a marketplace price point. A very different exercise, though certainly one still requiring engineering expertise and design flair. The Boxster has more design flair, but is still a cynically compromised device.

It is indeed very much to be hoped that Porsche will hear the growing discord and protest from groups such as this, people who understand the design and engineering ethos that made Porsche great, and engineer the 997 as they did the 911. But sadly, I don't think this will happen. Only a few of the people who buy 996's/Boxster's are true enthusiasts, supporting Porsche regardless. So very many are in it for the kudos they percieve the Porsche marque to bring them.

As an industrial designer and engineer myself, I find Porsche's current marketing led approach abhorrent for a company which I once idolised.

I'll step off my soap box now....

[johncj8989]

I'll say it again..... LEXUS 996

[Deeks]

Sadly, I agree with much of the above.


Does anyone have Wiedeking's e-mail address so we can post him this thread ????

..... our voice must be heard !!!

[Dantilla]

The Corvette went through a pretty dark period, but has been returning to a technology and performance leader once again.

Hopefully, Porsche will someday return to it's roots.

............We'll see........

[johncj8989]

Oh dont even get me started on the Vette!!! Fast, maybe.....good car..... Not so sure

[tshih]

Well, Wiedeking will say if you want a proper 911 buy the Turbo or GT2,
That will earn Porsche more profits and you will get a better car with all the proper engineering same as always. It's a sneaky way of playing the game! Hopefully the depreciation will lead to lower priced used Turbos as well in about 5 years time.

[speeder]

While I also lament the direction that Porsche has taken with some, (most), of their current products, what I often hear on this board goes something like this: "Why can't they make/sell a very slightly updated version of the traditional 911, air-cooled, dry sump, dashboard that looks like '65-'89, never mind the cost, etc.,etc." Believe it or not, this was tried. It was called the 964, and by 1994 I think that they sold about 8 of them. Dealers closed by the dozens, and the company nearly went under.

I don't like the looks of the Boxter, and think that the 996 has too many compromises, but I see their strategy, (including the SUV), as drastic measures too stay afloat and independent. Obviously it has paid off for them beyond their wildest dreams up to this point, hard to say what will happen in coming years with an uncertain economy and ever changing fashions in car buying taste.

I firmly believe that if they had not radically altered their direction in the '90's, (and the much revered 993 was the begining of this cost-slashing), they would by now have changed hands more times than Rover. And be about as profitable, (Rover was sold for, what, $1.00 last time?). Just be glad that they ever made the cars that we love so much, and they made them for a LOOOOONG time.

[johncj8989]

"So it is true...... Porsche is dead." Excuse me while I lament in a dark closet for a few days.

Win a race sunday, sell a car monday.


Can't remember who said it.



The problem today is that Porsches marketing is pretty much based on the glory of yesterday (mostly achieved with aircooled cars) while the cars they sell right now can't live up to the glory. If they don't start racing (seriously) in the near future things will be embarrasing.

[speeder]

"Win on Sunday, sell on Monday", was an ad slogan of one of the Big 3, (GM, Ford or Chrysler), back in the late '50's or early '60's and refered to NASCAR. Sorry I can't remember which company. Not really very meaningful when you consider the lack of race technology in those (production) cars.

I am much more upset about the demise of Alfa Romeo in the U.S., Porsche is alive and well. They just don't sell 1989 Carreras any more. (Or 928s, or 944s, or 924s for that matter).

[Dana_Drury]

I truly believe that if every single one of us who has written to this thread and many similar threads wrote a concise letter to Porsche regarding our individual concerns they might start to listen.

You have to remember that they don't go scouring the websites looking for criticism of their product. Motoring journalists still praise the cars as best I can tell. Its the true fans that can wield the power if need be.

We all here are potential customers of Porsche, and as potential customers I think they might listen if we all start pointing out how lame the product is becoming, and increasing shareholder value in the short term and not tempering the long term honour of the company is going to cause a lot of problems for Porsche.

I personally want to start seeing it (Porsches) win Le Man again, they came very close to winning the Bathurst 24 Hour, they won the Nations Cup here in Australia (but they had very.. very stiff competition, its only because the driver Jim Richards is so good that they won), but they need to step up to the challenge of creating a factory racing that will put every other car manufacturer to shame again.

[Dana_Drury]

Originally posted by speeder
I am much more upset about the demise of Alfa Romeo in the U.S., Porsche is alive and well. They just don't sell 1989 Carreras any more.

Yeah but how long will Porsche be alive and well using a marketing campaign that relies on the glory past of its racing prowess and appeals to a transient market - but how long will that work for?

The old head of marketing in my company who bought a Porsche 928 and then eventually a Boxster said he purchased them because they were a "life style" choice, he couldn't care about the engineering, they were simply a to be seen and look good in. And while we will always have drivers like that, once you lose the hard core fans, thinks will start to become dire...

[930fan]

The 996 is top of it's class at the moment as rated by the various magazine comparisons that have been published. There are faster cars and there are cheaper cars but that has always been the case throughout the 911's history.

A lot of you may not like the 996 but right here right now in 2003, what other NEW car would you get for similar money? BMW M3 - Too fat (200 kilos heavier), unreliable ( see http://members.roadfly.com/jason/m3engines.htm) and ubiquitous. Jaguar XKR - too soft, too fat (400 kilos heavier) and auto only. Maserati - See Jag comments. Merc SL - See Jag comments. Corvette - Plllleeease. Ferrari 360 - Different price league.

Everyone should just wake up to the fact that it's 2003 not 1973. There are far tougher noise, pollution and safety regulations in place than anything dreamed about 30 years ago. The fact is, the 996 is bigger, faster, safer, more comfortable, more accomodating, lighter , more accelerative, better handling, cleaner and cheaper than the 993. Want a plusher interior? Just specify full leather. Want a sportier feel, just specify the factory sports exhaust and sports suspension. Want a pukka race engine - tick the box that says Gee Tee Three. Can't afford it - stop *****ing and work harder.

Porsches are the way they are now because that is waht the market expects and the biggest market for Porsches is the USA so if anyone is to blame its the USA. Porsche still makes products to cater for the true enthusiast and now that the GT3 is coming to the USA, perhaps some of the haters should try to hitch a ride. 3.6, 8000rpm, 380bhp, coilover suspension, 6 piston brakes, 190mph, no rear seats. It's big $$$ but as always, you gotta pay to play.

[YTNUKLR]

The 996 ads, have any of you guys noticed, depict teqiupment (whatever that is) and "Sport" exhuast pipes and goofy-looking wheels. Look at the 70s ads at the early 911S page and you will see the racing derivations. I remember one, "you find out what something's made of when the pressure is on," and it showed a SWB red 911 Coupe on the track. WHAT IS "BUTZI" (FA Porsche, the father of the 911) DOING TO STOP THIS? In european car when they interviewed Wiedrich or whatever his name is (the new CEO? of Porsche), he said that the "famed flat-six engine...is open to reinvention. And once, Ferry said something along the lines of (when asked about the rear-engine concept and air-cooling), "A radiator in the front and the engine in the back? You see, that is just poor engineering." Porsches were never poorly engineered. Why should they start now???