Interesting thing I learned about the 996 and the track last weekend...

[patalive]

-------"Everyone should just wake up to the fact that it's 2003 not 1973. There are far tougher noise, pollution and safety regulations in place than anything dreamed about 30 years ago. The fact is, the 996 is bigger, faster, safer, more comfortable, more accomodating, lighter , more accelerative, better handling, cleaner and cheaper than the 993. Want a plusher interior? Just specify full leather. Want a sportier feel, just specify the factory sports exhaust and sports suspension. Want a pukka race engine - tick the box that says Gee Tee Three. Can't afford it - stop *****ing and work harder. "------------

Sorry, cannot agree with you. As we have discussed earlier, one of the main attractions of the Porsche was being able to take a car from the showroom to the track and not worry about the crank twisting, the trans failing, the engine roasting from oil starvation, etc. Yeah, the new 996 Taurus might be all the things you say, but only for the first 3000 miles, Then, on the track, it goes kaput. It's a car for voyeurs, not for true sport car people. It will be interesting to see if there are as many 996s on the road 20 years from now, as there are SCs and Carreras - jeez we run our 30 year old cars, with STOCK engines, at 6300 rpm all day on the track and then drive them home. No chance in hell a 20 year old, much less a 20 month old, 996 Taurus can do that.

Chuck
93 C2

[930fan]

Originally posted by patalive
Yeah, the new 996 Taurus might be all the things you say, but only for the first 3000 miles, Then, on the track, it goes kaput. It's a car for voyeurs, not for true sport car people......... jeez we run our 30 year old cars, with STOCK engines, at 6300 rpm all day on the track and then drive them home. No chance in hell a 20 year old, much less a 20 month old, 996 Taurus can do that.

OK. And this "fact" comes from your extensive experience with tracking 996's all day right?

I have a 1984 930. When it was stock (many moons ago), it was diabolical on the track - chronic understeer when on power and lift off oversteer the moment you even think of changing your line mid-corner. Since then, I've done the usual bolt-on stuff plus some pagid brake pads and the power on understeer is just impossible and the brakes are spent after 6 laps which is just as well since the oil temps are creeping up to the danger mark by then. Don't get me wrong, I love my car to bits but to say that it can lap all day is just b/s. Maybe an SC can lap all day but hell, it's only making 180 bhp from 3 litres and at that state of tune, it bloody well ought to lap all day since even a 190 bhp Honda Civic 1.6 litre can last all day at the track without problems

Sure, the early 3.4 996's had their problems but (just guessing here) it probably was no worse than the 2.7 911s, the SC broken head stud problems, the 3.2 valve guide problems, the 964 oil leak and flywheel problems, the 993 wiring harness problems.... I can go on but I think you see my point. If you don't like the shape that's ok but to knock the engineering is just being bloody minded, I think.

As for track use voiding warranties, I think you will fine that disclaimer in any car handbook produced today.

[A Quiet Boom]

"Race on Sunday, Sell on Monday" was Lee Iaccoca I believe and he was talking about more than just Nascar, he was talking about Trans Am and drag racing as well (remember the factory lightweights back then?) As for technology I wouldn't knock the big three of the late 60's early '70s to much, wasn't it the GT 40 that placed 1,2 and 3 at Lemans? Yep! How about Shelby's 427 Cobras and Daytona Coupes the bain of Ferrari and the Corvette, If I'm not mistaken the 427 Cobra held the title for fastest car 0-100-0 until at least the mid '80s.

Yes, I agree that Porsche should maintain racing involvement, their cars should be more track ready etc. but all of that is a moot point if they cease to exist! If you compared all the other cars in the category of the 996 I'd bet it's the most suited to the track out of the box and that's saying something. Would I buy one? Well only if I had the $$$ for a race version or turbo. For now I'll stick to my old P-car and modify it and if I need a brand new high-powered car I'll get the new SVT Mustang with it's stock Brembo brakes, 391 supercharged HP and enough torque to put Goodyear back in business.

[tiorio]

Duh! Enzo worked at Alfa and Fiat owns Ferrari. Where's that 'History of Ferrari' book gone to? Maybe it was the "996 Taurus"?

I really enjoyed Jim's response and comments. My intention was to say that a a fair amount of what would be the market for high-end sports cars has shifted to the relatively new segment of SUVs and sport-trucks, mostly for those who are interested in status vehicles. His point about competition in the sports-car segment has started me thinking, more on that later...

I do think that the whole perception of automobile racing has changed and Jim's comment that

"they were incredible pieces of engineering that were closely related and had a direct connection to what the factory was racing and winning with"

brings up a very interesting point. Does anyone feel that Porsche's current involvement in racing has a direct bearing on the vehicles down at the dealer? Does it matter to you as an automotive and/or racing enthusiast (defined by nothing but the fact you spend time on this forum)?

I would guess that we are a fairly small minority of the market. Should Porsche be tailoring cars to us (and spending money racing in series that are largely ignored by the broader US market), or to a much larger market segment? Do a small pocket of enthusiasts for a marque drive much broader sales?

Maybe Porsche should race NASCAR (I'm not being condescending here)?

I think the acid test may be this. Many moons ago when I had an 'old' Porsche (1968) it made me want a 'new' Porsche (mid 1980s) all the more! Fast forward to now. I have an 'old' Porsche (1989) and I'd much rather have it than a 'new' (current) Porsche.

Either Porsche is doing a bad job of selling to me or I'm no longer in the biggest target audience and they're not TRYING to sell to me (and don't care if the don't)...


(Uh-oh....INCOMING! )

[speeder]

This is an interesting discussion among enthusiasts, (even if it has been had a lot already), what it really comes down to is the question, "who are Porsche's core customers"? The answer, I'm afraid, is not guys like us who hotrod 20-30yr. old 911s. They are obviously producing a product that appeals to their true customer base, (based on sales figures), affluent and upwardly mobile people who are young at heart, if not in years.

I would argue that Porsche's core customer base and the product mission of the 911 hasn't changed much at all in 30+ years. 99+% of new 911 buyers in 1973 did not track their brand new cars. The cars themselves, despite a lot of revisionist history around here, were considered grand touring/sports cars; not to say for a minute that they were not true sports cars, but they were heavy and very luxurious compared to the competition at the time. (Triumph, MG, Alfa, etc.). I think that the only real difference is that the "old world build quality" is a thing of the past. In 1973 they were definitely considered a little heavy, (especially when loaded up w/ power options, A/C, etc.), they only seem light in retrospect compared w/ modern cars. Of course they would still mop the track w/ competitor's cars, just like a 996 will.

The only new one that excites me is the 996tt, and of course that one IS track ready. But for 99+% of buyers, including turbo buyers, they only want to drive them on the street. The current product more than meets their needs. I agree that the factory should get back into racing in a serious way, but I remember an interview w/ Peter Shutz, Porsche CEO in the early/mid '80's. A journalist asked if their "average customer" used or appreciated the performance capability of their cars. He answered, "Our average customer is defined by income only. Our average customer would be 18 years old if these cars were not so expensive"

That sums it up nicely for me.

[Dana_Drury]

You know I was reading a top speed shoot out between cars that are available in Australia, and the 911 Turbo won (again, nothing came close, the only thing to beat it was their test bench, a V8 Supercar, capable of 3km's better top speed).

(They didn't test things like Enzo Ferrari's etc, this was simply a test of the high performance cars readily available in Australia).

Anyway, I was reading through the test and right at the end, in the bottom corner in grey was a small line thanking all the testers, those who supplied the test equipment, clothes etc. And the last words were -

"And thanks to Ferdinand Porsche for starting something really big...."

I hope it stays that way.

[plain fan]

To the guy that asked why should Porsche engineer their cars to be driven on the track when most owners don't drive them on the track.
If this were true why is Porsche so D@MN proud of their truck being the best of both worlds-street and offroad- when almost all SUV owners never take their trucks off pavement???

[johncj8989]

Well I for one will hold my breath until the 997 is released. To me this is maybe their last chance to convince me that they still have a little of the old blood running through their veins. I would really like to buy one but if it doesnt float my cork I guess I will continue to work on my 76 911 and 912e projects and find a nice 993 for daily pleasures and forget about owning a brand new Porsche.

The new Porsches are very good street cars with very little competition. And the buyer's are posers who, unlike us, don't care about motorsport. Perhaps that's right, but.....

It annoys me to see how Porsche AG absolutely "must" squeeze some motorsport history, heritage and past glory into their brochures and advertising. They know the 986/996 basic models won't do good on the track. They haven't been to LeMans for years. They haven't won anyhting big with the new cars. Still they use the "magic" to seduct buyer's. A poser 996 owner will enjoy telling his collegues and friends how Porsche is the factory with most victories in LeMans. So of course he'll fall for the marketing.

"So my dad can beat up your dad. Erhm well, at least if he was 15 years younger he could". That's Porsche's marketing. "We can't do it today, but 15 years ago we could". And as dynamic business men they're going to use that to sell cars you know!

Fake.... Either be honest or don't try to seduct buyer's with past glory.

Had to get that out

[patalive]

930fan said ----- "As for track use voiding warranties, I think you will fine that disclaimer in any car handbook produced today."

EXACTLY the point that is being made in this thread! Porsche has become just like every other car company. This was not the case when they were producing quality cars that could be tracked. Now they are producing pure street machines, good one for sure, but street machines nonetheless that are not track cars. They are highend highway cruisers, i.e., 996 Taruus. As has been said in so many ways, Porsche is resting on it laurels from bygone years.
-
Question: is the Paris to Dakar race still being run? I don't know. But if it is, I bet Porsche would never think of entering their precious pepper pot SUV in the race. Porsche is shying away from all direct competition with its competitors.

Chuck
93 C2

To my knowledge Paris Dakar is being run right now.

[Deeks]

No mention of the forthcoming Carrera GT........

Why build a car like this if no racing is planned for the future?
Surely we're going back to Le Mans boys ???

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by Deeks
No mention of the forthcoming Carrera GT........

Why build a car like this if no racing is planned for the future?
Surely we're going back to Le Mans boys ???

They have said they aren't going to race the Carrera GT.

[Deeks]

Don't believe a word of it !!!

Porsche may be building SUV 's but I think they have it all planned out. I still have faith......

The Porsche engineers have NOT spent $$$$$$$$ on developing the new V10 and GT Carrera for it to plod around on public roads at 50mph being driven by a few extremely rich collectors.......

Think.... Nurburgring.....Le Mans........Spa......Laguna Seca......

I can see it already...

[Jim Garfield]

In the Dakar rally as of yesterday:

Mitsubishi 1st & 2nd

BMW X5 3rd

Nissan 4th

VW 5th

Porsche AWOL

[ChrisBennet]

Originally posted by Deeks
Don't believe a word of it !!!

The Porsche engineers have NOT spent $$$$$$$$ on developing the new V10 and GT Carrera for it to plod around on public roads at 50mph being driven by a few extremely rich collectors.......

I want to have faith too but I read an interview with one of the Porsche's head development guys. He said something to the effect that when he asked about doing something to the GT that would make it better for future racing he was told not to, the GT wasn't going to be raced.
-Chris

[rdvnac]

Just MHO, but if manufacturer racing success is the sole means for judging the value of a car, we should all be driving Mistsubushi Lancers.

I have one of the nicer 32-year old cars around, but I would trade it in a millisecond for my friend's 996 C4S, whch does everything better--and BTW has 30k hard miles on it without a single hiccup, a much better record than any Porsche I have owned, including an '85 Carrera and '92 C2.

There are lots of folks driving 996s whose Porsche pedigree would stack up against anybodys, and who are very happy with their choice.

[Jim Garfield]

Bob,

I think that the point that is being made imo is that this recent
marketing strategy is a 180 degree turn from the guiding principles
on which the company was founded, and which were in place from the
beginning until the mid 90's. It's contrary to the direction established
by Ferry Porsche and is ruining a reputation so hard fought to establish.

[930fan]

I think some people may be confused here. Porsche do race the 996. In fact, the 996 GT3 won their class at Le Mans in 2002 (beating BMW and Ferrari) and the preceding two years too so I think in that sense they are carrying on factory tradition. Some might argue that they don't race with the standard 996 engine but then again a 1970's Porsche 935 has just as little in common with a Porsche 911t of the same era so to say the company is just trading on past glories is being really unfair I think.

Yes, they are not represented in the top flight of endurance racing such as the prototype category but unlike every other manufacturer in F1 or sports prototypes, Porsche hasn't got a rich daddy paying for the racing unlike Fiat and Ferrari ($300m annual racing budget), VW and Audi ($100m racing budget) and the others. The Carrera GT will not race because it would be uncompetitive for an overall win so what's the point? Sports car racing is nothing like it was in the 70s when production based racers could fight for overall honours. It is far too specialised now so that even the most extreme road cars will not be able to be competitive - witness how Ferrari built but never raced the F50 GT1, Mclaren's F1 was uncompetitive a year after it's debut and even the Saleen S7 will never get an overall win in racing.

As for the warranty issue, I think the growth of track days and DE's recently have meant that the company just has to be prudent to protect itself from a new breed of buyers. Poseurs in Porsches have existed from the early days so don't blame the 996 for attracting these types of buyers. Besides, does that mean that anyone who doesn't track their Porsche is a poseur?? I think that label will stick to a lot of people on this thread....

As for racing the Cayenne - what's that all about??? rdvnac made a good point about the Mitsubishi Lancer if racing successfully automatically meant the road car is good.

[rdvnac]

Jim,

You're right, and that is very well said.

I guess I just get a little uncomfortable when the animosity seems directed at the car/driver rather than the marketing strategy. I sure know I don't want to be in my buddy's 996 anywhere around Chuck, lest he toss a grenade our way.

Like everybody, I wish that Porsche's current direction isn't what it is, but if you want or need a new car, the 996 or Boxster are hardly horrible choices. And their styling is fine by me, especially when compared to contemporary competition--I've also had some BMW M cars, but give me a 996 "Taurus" over a chunky E46 M3 any day!