Another project thread/intoduction

Rennsport77 · 05-31-2016, 05:21 PM

So this will be a bit long winded and the project will be rather slow going, but I figured it's time to get it out there since the need for more knowledge is just around the corner. So here it is

Underneath all the dirt and dust and fiberglass it's a 1972 911 E with a 2.4 CIS lump. On the outside it's clad in what I assumed were 73 rs 2.7 replica fiberglass fenders and quarter panels, and an early turbo style fiberglass whale tail. I recently purchased this from my father who bought the car back in 1995 if I remember correctly. It was purchased from the person who modified it, someone by the name of Jay Koehler (apparently he had a reputation of some kind for prepping 911s and other P car products for track duty). It was said to be modified for use in SCCA track racing and Porsche club racing as well. It was said that the engine was heavily modified as well, although if you were to ask him these days the only thing he can remember for sure is that the guy told him the internals were blueprinted and balanced. Now obviously if the internals are actually blueprinted and balanced that leaves a hell of a lot open as far as other possible modifications since blueprinting and balancing is a fairly involved process. All I know is as a kid this thing felt like a rocketship and my dad took every opportunity to scare the living hell out of me while driving it. This car was my dream car growing up, and still is. It was my poster car and the reason I got so deep into cars, and now it's my turn to enjoy it (after a substantial amount of repairing obviously). So where I stand as far as restoration goes is as follows; first up, the floor. There is a hole under the pedal cluster, and through the cluster bracket. I have the cluster out and a replacement pedal cluster that needs rebuilding just in from the guys at aase auto sales, and a pedal area repair panel from the good folks at restoration design. A good friend of mine that I used to work with back in my body shop industry days is going to take care of the floors.

My buddy is also going to take care of the second big repair which is the back window frame which took damage after an ice storm that left a tree laying on top of the storage facility it was stored in a couple years ago

Now a couple months back I was perusing ebay in anticipation of this project and stumbled across a backglass with defroster grid (which this was originally equipped with, but after an unfortunate case of vandalism while it sat in the back lot of a body shop years ago left it with a non defrost unit which was the only replacement available at the time) so I bought it as fast as I could. Now as far as the sheet metal repair goes I'm in a bit of a tight spot.. I can get the lower window frame corners, but the section that's damaged in between the corners I can't find a repair panel for anywhere so I'm going to have to rely on my friends skill to make due with what's left.

So whats left on the list? I need to get caliper rebuilds although I'm not totally sure what calipers are on it. I need to either rebuild or replace the master cylinder as well. The voltage regulator is dead and needs replaced. Both windows fall out of the tracks when moved up or down. The interior is completely done for at this point so that will be assessed eventually. Then there's a load of maintenance that needs to be caught up on. And there's the tire conundrum for those of us with 15 inch wheels using 205/50 and 225/50 tires.. There's a lot I either haven't found yet, or don't know yet that I plan to run into eventually as well. My plan first and foremost is to get her running and roadworthy so I can get a couple drives in before it's time to put her up for winter again. My overall plan will likely be to make her a track rat and super fun road car. I have thought about a full on restoration back to tip top replica condition, but being that I'm a dealer mechanic in Michigan (in the 5 lowest paying states for mechanics) with my first mortgage just around the corner and whatever else the near future might hold, there's no way I could afford to do that. And to be honest I've always been more interested in vintage race cars than any other form of cars so I'll have no regret in going the racecar route. Now before the market value argument comes into play, first off this car is heavily modified as it stands and in poor condition, and second of all, considering this car is part of my history, I have absolutely no plans of selling it. I'll be posting with updates as they come and be asking for your guys knowledge often I'm sure. I have another source in a friend who used to work at the BMW dealer I work at who now works at Euro Autowerks, a shop here in Michigan that plays with super cool old Porsches on a regular basis so hopefully I shouldn't run out of knowledge any time soon haha. Thanks all!

DRACO A5OG · DRACO A5OG's Garage

Break a Leg Brother and keep us posted

billybek · billybek's Garage

Looks like a very interesting project.
Welcome to the forum.

What are your plans for the body? Going back to steel or sticking with the fiberglass?

Cool that it was your dad's too!

Maybe someone is cutting up a donor that you could get some cuts from?

Rennsport77 · 05-31-2016, 07:02 PM

Thanks! I plan on sticking with fiberglass for now so i can spend that money on other repairs. I've been hoping to find someone parting out a rotted shell so I can get that back window piece

Rennsport77 · 06:58 AM

So this question has been nagging at me for a while. It's not totally relevant to the project at this point but it's something I'd like to know a bit more about. I'm curious about the possibilities of using e85 in an air cooled. Now I'll preface this with the following, I know if I was to experiment with this idea I'd start from square 1 (maybe 2 considering these engines would probably need some internal and head reworking to accommodate e85 properly) with a good solid standalone engine management system with good controlling properties, something like lugtronic for instance (as i instantly identify myself as a watercooled vw/audi guy) that can help control all the odds and ends in fine detail. I just feel like the properties of e85 could be beneficial. Standard pump e85 in most places is at least roughly equivalent to 100-c10 race fuel, while burning cooler. The added compression and timing tolerance which adds heat would be offset by cooler burning temps. I feel like with the right internals (something with a low friction coating perhaps) at a fair comp ratio and a cam with relatively high DCR could make a Pretty healthy N/A engine. Is it just not in anyone's interest or is there a factor I'm overlooking maybe? Also as a follow up question I suppose, what is with the rebuild industries love for nicasil? Iirc it was the culprit behind premature engine wear in a line of bmw 4.0 v8s and some toyota/lexus 3.0 v6s. It deteriorates when in contact with polonium products from what i recall.. Anyway, just day dreaming/scheming at work and thought I'd throw that out there

Matt Monson · 06-02-2016, 07:03 AM

Jay is still around.

Rennsport77 · 06-02-2016, 08:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Jay is still around.

Really!? That's fantastic! I've always wondered if he was. Obviously I don't expect to be able to just reach out and make contact or for him to have any info on a car he had his hands on 20 years ago, but at least its a recognizable name haha.

Rennsport77 · 06-06-2016, 04:06 AM

Well I suppose this will be my first real update. Got the car loaded up over the weekend and trailered off to a friends shop so he can replace the rotted floor section and repair the back window frame. After some discussion there's a good chance it will also be getting both rockers repaired with the restoration design inner and outer rocker kits that include Jack tubes and plates as well as lower door skins. I would REALLY like to get another hood and deck lid to him so when it's done it will look pretty much 100% but I don't think that's in the budget since my initial "get it running and on the road" budget has already been blown. I'm not really expecting to drive it down the road anymore this summer, I've decided to cool my jets and take it a bit slower so i don't end up having too take it all back apart again to do work i should just get handled now. That leaves me some more possibilities and thus more questions though. Should I go right into adjustable coilover suspension or hold off for a while? Skills i pull the engine and inspect/upgrade things or just hold off there? It's all turning into one very exciting, very expensive question mark of a build at this point.... Plus I may or may not have bought another project over the weekend... I can't help myself sometimes

wayner · 06-06-2016, 04:16 AM

Lots of people enter the air cooled Porsche world all keen on putting adjustable coil over suspension on these cars.

Keep in mind that from the factory they came with adjustable torsion bar suspension. The operative word is "adjustable."

Just dial a ride weight.

The factory went coil over on their race cars when they needed higher spring rates than could reasonably be fit when the bars would become too big, but thats a pretty high spring rate. Unless you are racing or looking for bling, torsion bars are still a viable solution even for track work.

Rennsport77 · 06-06-2016, 05:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner

Lots of people enter the air cooled Porsche world all keen on putting adjustable coil over suspension on these cars.

Keep in mind that from the factory they came with adjustable torsion bar suspension. The operative word is "adjustable."

Just dial a ride weight.

The factory went coil over on their race cars when they needed higher spring rates than could reasonably be fit when the bars would become too big, but thats a pretty high spring rate. Unless you are racing or looking for bling, torsion bars are still a viable solution even for track work.

Well, i just learned something new! I did not realize that the torsion bars are adjustable. That would take care of the vast majority of what i wanted. The car as i remember it from when i was a kid and the little while i drove it in high school was pretty stiff. And obviously shouldn't need to much tweaking for most tracks. I wouldn't mind having a little bump and rebound control for those more heated track events when I'm hunting for .10ths but that's really not necessary If the torsion bars are adjustable. I guess the only other thing i want out of it is just a little less ground clearance but that's purely a cosmetic desire. Thank you, that really solves that question pretty easily!

wayner · 06-06-2016, 09:07 AM

Yes. Ground clearance is easily adjustable with the stock setup

Spring rate requires swapping in bigger or smaller torsion bars.
Tuning can also be done with sway bars

Rebound etc is all a function of modern shocks, either coil over or conventional.

Use it before you start throwing money at suspension. These are not Honda civics with going for grocery suspensions and brakes. They come pretty well set up.

Eventually if you do want to go coil over, you'll know what problems you are trying to solve.
Otherwise it's just guesswork and your robbing yourself of the experience

Rennsport77 · 06-06-2016, 09:49 AM

All very good points, thank you. I also didn't realize that ride height was adjustable. Now are the sway bars adjustable as is or via adjustable aftermarket links? Really I just want to be able to make mild adjustments too accommodate changes in track type. Obviously the set up for a track that's got a lot of sweeping cambered corners and elevation change is going to be quite different from the set up for a small, flat, technical bull ring track. I don't think it will be an all out racecar at this point mostly because of the cost, but I'd like to be able to make changes for the tracks I will run. Ultimately if all those things mentioned are adjustable then I can move my focus away from suspension for the time being. Thanks again, this is all vital information for me as I plan the project out. More than anything at this point I want to figure out what has been done to this car. I don't want to get an idea to do something only to have it be counterproductive because something else that is more beneficial has been done. I won't get those answers until the car comes back from body and paint repair, but when it's back I'll need as much knowledgeable help identifying things as I can get.

wayner · 06-07-2016, 06:25 AM

Stock sway bars are not adjustable to my knowledge, but if you chose aftermarket carefully you can get something that works with what you have now and what you may go with later.

If you do decide to jump in with both feet (I really think you should drive your car as is first though)
here is a good thread that recently popped up:

Track/street Suspension for 911

Rennsport77 · 06-07-2016, 08:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wayner

Stock sway bars are not adjustable to my knowledge, but if you chose aftermarket carefully you can get something that works with what you have now and what you may go with later.

If you do decide to jump in with both feet (I really think you should drive your car as is first though)
here is a good thread that recently popped up:

Track/street Suspension for 911

That is a very interesting thread, but for now I agree with the idea of driving it as is and seeing what it feels like. The body repairs are going to eat up a lot of my budget for the time being and after doing some digging I'm really more focused on identifying what's been done to the engine and driveline. I don't know for sure that the transmission or differential have been toyed with at all but I'm almost positive there's more to be known about the engine. Once it gets back to me I'll start off by getting my brakes identified and rebuilt and then get it started and running to see if she still runs good (always has in the passed). Once I get to that point I'll start trying to figure out whats been done to the engine. There is a story my dad tells about the car (I vaguely remember being there for it as a kid) from one particular PCA event at a local track (gratten raceway) where he spent all day trying to chase down a tweaked SC that he thought would be good competition. After doing so for the first half of the day he let my cousin take a few laps in it (my cousin is much more experienced in road course racing and driving 911s) and he ended up seeing fastest lap in class and matching the fast lap of a slant nose 930 turbo that was hard for anyone to touch inn their class. My cousin was blown away by this car and swears that this is either a HEAVILY modified 2.4 or possibly not even a 2.4 anymore. Also was very impressed with the handling characteristic and setup which its still unknown at this point.