First DE Track Day in the books - Need some tips/suggestions

[HWG09]

Took my '87 911 out for it's first track day as well as mine and had a lot of fun.

One of only two air cooled cars there and with my bisimoto pulse chamber got a lot of compliments on the car.

Long way to go but learned a lot and lots to work on. Now need some help from Pelican'ers.

Within 5 minutes of being there it was suggested to me that my tires are not wide enough. In hindsight it's pretty obvious but the rears especially are stretched pretty wide and the wheel bead sticks out quite a bit. Basically the sidewall is not vertical with the wheel. Rears worse than the fronts.

Rears


Fronts


I'm running stock tire size 205/55/16 on the front and 225/50/16 on the back but I have wider BBS wheels so some suggested moving the rear tires to the front and going with a 245/265 or even a 275 on the back so I need some suggestions there.

Lastly, my biggest struggle on the track was mastering the downshift (particularly 4th down to 3rd) in the corners. I think there's too many moving parts for me to be good at it just yet.

Lots of people suggested working on my heel/toe but my issue is even with the brake fully depressed I cannot reach the gas when I roll my foot to blip the throttle so my question is is there a way to raise up the gas pedal a bit to make that a possibility?

Thanks

[T77911S]

don't try to go fast, work on being smooth with transitions. braking, turning, accel, shifting. learn how to drive the car first, then work on speed.

the rear definitely looks like the tire could hit the fender if you go wider.
do you have spacers on the rear? how wide are the rims?

you can move the rears to the front to give you an idea of what will fit.

it looks like you have turbo flares?
on my 930 I am running 235 and 285's.
but it comes down to offsets and spacers.
if you go wider I would try to move those rears in some.

either those rims are not very wide or they have a lot of offset and you are running big spacers.

[cmcfaul]

When driving around town, practice the heel toe. I find it's easier on the track as the brake goes further down as the brakes get hot. It can be done with the heel or the side of the foot. What ever works better for you. If the pedal just don't want to work for you, you can adjust them or add covers that make it easier.

Heel toe is essential for a smooth downshift. Plus its cool when you can do it correctly.

Chris

89 Carerra

[911 Rod]

The width of your rims will dictate the tire size. What are the widths? (stamped on the inner side)

As far as downshifting in the corner, your work zone should be complete before you turn the steering wheel. If you can't heel and toe, finish your braking and the move your foot back to the gas to give it a blip.

It's all about seat time and working on the little things.

[HWG09]

Thanks guys. Hear a lot of similar to what I learned this weekend which is very much appreciated.

Totally agree with being smooth and not worrying about fast. I'm not worried about times at all just making things more smooth and hitting my lines but tough to do that when I'm JoJo the Idiot Circus Boy trying to heel toe into a sharp right hander.

A couple of responses to questions.

Yes I have pretty large spacers on the rears. I bought the car in this setup (spacers, wheels, tire size) and I replaced the rear tires in Mar so found the same size. I'll get exact wheel width later today.

Car has aftermarket turbo body. Will prob take it to a local shop to help consult on correct tire setup. I'm sure when I get that sorted I will have much better handling on the track.

I will continue to work on the heel/toe but some adjustments will have to be made as there is just no way I can reach the gas pedal.

[SiberianDVM]

Rennline gas pedal.

Rennline (Rev2) Gas Pedal - Porsche-Rennline, Inc.

[Luccia at Pelican Parts]

I perfected my rev matching and "heel toe" on the streets, but I once had an instructor tell me I was doing too much while driving on the track. So, for one of the sessions out we focused on what gears to be in at what sections of the track. If I needed to down shift quickly and doing it by heel toeing was not an option - foot in clutch and brake and then shift and let out when ready. It helped me at least improve as I was thinking/doing too much at the time. That comes with more experience. Being fast is about being smooth. Smooth driving = fast. Tires - I went with the widest suggested for my set up. More meat on the ground the better. And yes, stuff like the Rennline heel toe pedal can help as well if that's ultimately what you're wanting to accomplish. We sell it below.

1987 Porsche 911 Carrera Coupe - Pedal System - Page 5

[T77911S]

yes, I forgot to mention street practice.

fit the tires to the rims. the rears definitely look too small for the rim BUT you are going to have to reduce that spacer.

I would say you will have to reduce that rear by 2 inches.
I basically did the same thing on my 77. I had to get spacers that moved the wheels out to fill up the wheel well.
you may get away with the front as is but then looking at it from the rear you don't want the front sticking out further than the rear, it will look funny.

I have a set of 1 inch spacers if you need them.

BTW, 225 might be right for the front and if you have a 225 on the back you maybe able to goto a 245.

also check the ET on the back.

[HWG09]

Originally Posted by T77911S

yes, I forgot to mention street practice.

fit the tires to the rims. the rears definitely look too small for the rim BUT you are going to have to reduce that spacer.

I would say you will have to reduce that rear by 2 inches.
I basically did the same thing on my 77. I had to get spacers that moved the wheels out to fill up the wheel well.
you may get away with the front as is but then looking at it from the rear you don't want the front sticking out further than the rear, it will look funny.

I have a set of 1 inch spacers if you need them.

BTW, 225 might be right for the front and if you have a 225 on the back you maybe able to goto a 245.

also check the ET on the back.

I may hit you up on the spacers.

I'm taking the car into a local shop to look at the tire setup so we'll see what we need to do.

Thanks for all the tips and suggestions! Keep 'em coming.

[Driven97]

Does the corner in question prevent you from downshifting before the corner? I can't think of too many situations where you'd want to downshift in the middle of one, though I'm sure they exist.

[GaryR]

First of all - congratulations on your 1st DE day! As a DE Instructor, let me just say that until you master heel-toe on the street, leave it off the track. There are far too many things someone new needs to concentrate on to add something that is not necessary for a newbie. Proper line, smooth throttle, consistent braking and turn in points, using all the track, looking as far ahead as possible at all times, what was that last flag station person holding up?

As for tires, that is absolutely the wrong rear tire for that rim. Problem is I think it's also the wrong offset rim for that car and unless you have spacers and can reduce the spacer offset a wider tire is going to (most likely) rub. Other than a spacer reduction it's possible that BBS could supply the correct offset barrels to put your wheel's centerline inwards about 35mm, but that I don't know.
The height of the gas pedal is an easy fix, either buy a pedal cover from Rennline ($45 here) or make one. You can simply bolt it to your existing pedal and add spacers/washers to get it exactly where you want it. The ($$$) Rennline adjustable pedal is excellent also, but not necessary unless you have $$ to burn.

Have fun!!

[HWG09]

Originally Posted by GaryR

First of all - congratulations on your 1st DE day! As a DE Instructor, let me just say that until you master heel-toe on the street, leave it off the track. There are far too many things someone new needs to concentrate on to add something that is not necessary for a newbie. Proper line, smooth throttle, consistent braking and turn in points, using all the track, looking as far ahead as possible at all times, what was that last flag station person holding up?

As for tires, that is absolutely the wrong rear tire for that rim. Problem is I think it's also the wrong offset rim for that car and unless you have spacers and can reduce the spacer offset a wider tire is going to (most likely) rub. Other than a spacer reduction it's possible that BBS could supply the correct offset barrels to put your wheel's centerline inwards about 35mm, but that I don't know.
The height of the gas pedal is an easy fix, either buy a pedal cover from Rennline ($45 here) or make one. You can simply bolt it to your existing pedal and add spacers/washers to get it exactly where you want it. The ($$$) Rennline adjustable pedal is excellent also, but not necessary unless you have $$ to burn.

Have fun!!

I made a big jump on about the 3rd session when I started looking more ahead to where I wanted the car to go. Reminded me of motorcycle safety school. Before that I was focused on the next cone ahead.

I will practice more heel/toe on the street and leave that off the track.

Will see what the shop says on the tire size. The owner's daughter was in my novice group this weekend so he saw my car.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by HWG09

Took my '87 911 out for it's first track day as well as mine and had a lot of fun.

One of only two air cooled cars there and with my bisimoto pulse chamber got a lot of compliments on the car.

Long way to go but learned a lot and lots to work on. Now need some help from Pelican'ers.

Within 5 minutes of being there it was suggested to me that my tires are not wide enough. In hindsight it's pretty obvious but the rears especially are stretched pretty wide and the wheel bead sticks out quite a bit. Basically the sidewall is not vertical with the wheel. Rears worse than the fronts.

Rears


Fronts


I'm running stock tire size 205/55/16 on the front and 225/50/16 on the back but I have wider BBS wheels so some suggested moving the rear tires to the front and going with a 245/265 or even a 275 on the back so I need some suggestions there.

Lastly, my biggest struggle on the track was mastering the downshift (particularly 4th down to 3rd) in the corners. I think there's too many moving parts for me to be good at it just yet.

Lots of people suggested working on my heel/toe but my issue is even with the brake fully depressed I cannot reach the gas when I roll my foot to blip the throttle so my question is is there a way to raise up the gas pedal a bit to make that a possibility?

Thanks

The best track performance comes from using the widest wheel for which a tire is spec'ed, the side wall will look stretched
for a 205/55 x16 that would be a 7.5" wheel, for a 225/50 x16 an 8.

if the wheel is more that 8 you need a 245/45 x16 but you would want a 9 for that tire

They do make 255/50 x16 but the tire is too tall for a normally geared and powered 911

Hoosier used to make a 275/45 x16 which though a tad tall works ok on a 9.5 to 10


As a beginner you really don't want Hoosiers anyhow

I'd stick w/ 225/50 and 245/45 x16 on 7ET23 & 9ET15, Fuchs RE11 or maybe RA1

for heel & toe a 911 usually needs a custom gas pedal to raise it up to the plane of the brake
Something like this

[Trakrat]

WOW!! Those are some seriously stretched tires... I'm surprised you had any grip at all!! and that you didn't rip a tire off the wheel. Wow!!

Definitely change out the tires to normal size for your wheel widths and you'll see a HUGE improvement on everything!! Do that first before doing anything else and you'll be golden!!

[HWG09]

Originally Posted by Trakrat

WOW!! Those are some seriously stretched tires... I'm surprised you had any grip at all!! and that you didn't rip a tire off the wheel. Wow!!

Definitely change out the tires to normal size for your wheel widths and you'll see a HUGE improvement on everything!! Do that first before doing anything else and you'll be golden!!

Yeah I was scheduled to go for two days but with the dodgy tire situation and the fact that I was so exhausted from the first day I decided to sit it out and sort out the tires before the next one in 3 weeks.

[jons911]

Congratulations on your first track day! I remember my first day out (not in a porsche, but still) and I've been addicted ever since. I run 225/50/16 on 16x8 Fuchs and they are a great fit. 275 to 295 seems to be the sweet spot for the flared cars. Plenty of people run up to 315, but usually you have to plan the offset of the wheel when you buy them for that.

I know your struggle with trying to heel toe on the stock pedal box. No matter how I position my foot on the brake I just can't get my heel on the gas pedal. Instead, what I do on the street is to stay on the brakes as a shift, and as soon as it slips into gear, I slide my foot off the brake onto the gas for the blip and then straight back to the brake as I let the clutch out. It's slower than heel toe, and requires slightly longer braking zone, but it's better than just dumping the clutch and letting than transmission spool the engine up to 5k-6k from 1k-2k. Just a technique.

[GaryR]

Originally Posted by jons911

I know your struggle with trying to heel toe on the stock peddle box. No matter how I position my foot on the brake I just can't get my heel on the gas peddle. Instead, what I do on the street is to stay on the brakes as a shift, and as soon as it slips into gear, I slide my foot off the brake onto the gas for the blip and then straight back to the brake as I let the clutch out. It's slower than heel toe, and requires slightly longer braking zone, but it's better than just dumping the clutch and letting than transmission spool the engine up to 5k-6k from 1k-2k. Just a technique.

If you get your gas/brake pedal set up correctly (brake pedal under full compression should be even with or just above the gas pedal (a small wing extension helps)) I've found the easiest way is to brake with the ball (just under big toe) of your foot on the edge of the pedal and use the little toe side to blip the gas. I've never felt right twisting my foot and blipping with my heel. Everyone I know does it this way..

[brianlay]

In my 86 there was enough adjustment available in the brake pedal linkage to lower it to match the accelerator.
Practice on the street every chance you get and it will become instinctive

[shaunmbenson]

Congrats - as my man Otto used to say "how'd you like your first hot of heroin - most fun you can have with your clothes on!!"

I drove competitive time trial times (usually 2nd place 0.5 second behind my friend Bill in his boxster) with my 87 and then 86 3.2 cars. I didn't heel toe for the first 3 years -- just throttle blipped. Now, in my 5th year of tracking I feel I'm finally nailing it. It's a lovely practice that takes time.
I don't personally find the pedal differentials (stock) to be an issue but I also removed my centre console and that really helped heel-toe.
That said, after really turning my foot pigeon toed since I had the extra space and getting the feel of heel-toe, I know just roll my foot over and despite no pedal adjustment it seems to be right there for me.
In other words - the better I got and simpler I got with it the closer the pedals seemed to get

[rdimarco]

In my 86 there was enough adjustment available in the brake pedal linkage to lower it to match the accelerator.

^This^. You may not need aftermarket pedals. The brake pedal can be adjusted down to match the gas pedal.