Sway Bar Upgrade

[myslateblue911]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

The thing about sway bars is that w/ the right t-bars installed you don't need a lot of sway bar. It would be really handy to have at least one end of the car adjustable.

The whole purpose of sways is to tweek the handling, not make gross changes in it.

Mr Verburg,

As always, I appreciate your knowledge and expertise.

Thanks

myslateblue911 (jason)

[sp_cs]

Originally Posted by 911pcars

To piggyback onto Bill's comments, ride harshness, if that's a consideration, is more a function of big sway bars rather than larger torsion bars.

Sherwood

May just be me but this doesn't correlate with my experience with 23mm front and 22mm solid bars, and standard Boges.

I'm yet to experience any downsides with this combo, it corners flatter whilst straight line comfort is OEM quality.

My small brain was thinking larger torsion bars would hurt ride more than larger sways as the latter only come into play on corners, whilst stiffer torsion bars would be constantly firmer?

[bigel]

Also not an expert, but my thought process was similar to sp_cs...^^

[anil999]

The set of genuine RUF sway bars (23mm front, 22mm rear) I have fitted to my 88 3.2 Carrera are made by Eibach, so I find it strange that Eibach R&D are re-engineering these bars from scratch.

Whilst I agree that bigger is not always better, I find the 23mm front/22mm rear bars, in combination with the standard TBs and Boge shocks, are the perfect set up for a primarily street driven car. Not harsh at all.

[911pcars]

I hear you guys and don't dispute your driving experience. Perhaps I was/we were comparing apples (through-body sway bars, my history) and oranges (undermount sway bars).

It has been reported that Porsche 911 SC/Carrera undermount sway bars don't provide an ideal geometry for roll stiffness (compared with "apples" above), as though supporting a through-body sway bar with chassis sheet metal is ideal (no). Nevertheless, when larger undermount bars are discussed, the resultant ride apparently isn't the same as a through-body bar of the same size.

Please proceed.
Sherwood

[Ryan H]

Originally Posted by anil999

The set of genuine RUF sway bars (23mm front, 22mm rear) I have fitted to my 88 3.2 Carrera are made by Eibach, so I find it strange that Eibach R&D are re-engineering these bars from scratch.

Whilst I agree that bigger is not always better, I find the 23mm front/22mm rear bars, in combination with the standard TBs and Boge shocks, are the perfect set up for a primarily street driven car. Not harsh at all.

Those were designed and manufactured many moons ago in Germany. The new bars are being engineered by our team here in the states. Additionally we never copy parts we make for our private label customers (RUF).

Ryan

[Reiver]

I've lightened my '83 SC and upgraded to the Carrera sway bars and am extremely happy....it corners flat and the ride is not harsh.

I kept the stock rubber when rebuilding the front suspension/stock T bars but have adjustable arms in the rear with a poly bushed T bar.

Great road set up......lots go too far and end up losing their fillings on less than glass smooth roads.

[pdtweeks]

I've lightened my '83 SC and upgraded to the Carrera sway bars and am extremely happy....it corners flat and the ride is not harsh.

I kept the stock rubber when rebuilding the front suspension/stock T bars but have adjustable arms in the rear with a poly bushed T bar.

Great road set up......lots go too far and end up losing their fillings on less than glass smooth roads.

I have done pretty much the same, although I am running 22f/28r T-bars & ER Poly-Bronze and I do have the adjustable drop-links on the rear bar......most folks that have ridden with me consider the ride firm, but still very good. It is a sports-car after all.

[Steve W]

I have perhaps 200 miles on the new Eibach bars and I would be hard pressed to perceive a difference in the ride between stock and these new bars. There's no noise or vibration from them. It could be that the are mounted in mild durometer bushings and that the increase in stiffness is not that extreme. Besides a stock suspension I think they would also make a nice complement to an upgraded torsion bar setup such as 22/29s.

Regarding the front undermount setup, other than lack of adjustability it seems to work fine. It's pretty much how the front bars are mounted on the 996s, 997s, Boxsters and Caymans and works for them. Bending a bar with higher arms and multiple holes with a drop link to the strut body or control arm, yeah that would be the cat's meow.

[ISGASA]

Steve

We actually ended up with the higher front bar, drop links and two way adjustable. After we finished Steve's car we tried the bars on Steven's SC and realized that the install is too difficult (last week). We will need your car back to install the latest bar.

The 78 - 89 bars as well as the 964 bars are going in production right now. We are still looking for a 993 to fit a set of prototype bars.

Christian at Eibach

[Steve W]

Well meow that is fantastic news! I did get a comment by one shop asking what was the purpose of an upgraded bar was if it wasn't adjustable but seems you've addressed that! I will contact you by email.

Jim (Draco on this forum) told me there is a midway angle on the front control arms where the stock sway bar pops right in with no force. It's not at full droop such as up on a lift, or compressed such as when parked on a alignment rack but somewhere in the middle.

[gtc]

Are you producing bushings for these as well, or is there an existing OEM bushing that will fit?

[Ryan H]

Originally Posted by gtc

Are you producing bushings for these as well, or is there an existing OEM bushing that will fit?

Kits will include all necessary hardware including bushings.

[juanbenae]

Originally Posted by bigel

Also not an expert, but my thought process was similar to sp_cs...^^

the fact that the sway bars are tied to both sides of the suspension, the a-arms in front especially a jar on one side will transmit to the body & opposite side. where as stiff torsion bar less sway may take the jar more independently.

rock crawlers have front sways that disconnect quickly so each wheel's suspension can act independently when crawling.

those bars do look delicious though!

[myslateblue911]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I have perhaps 200 miles on the new Eibach bars and I would be hard pressed to perceive a difference in the ride between stock and these new bars. There's no noise or vibration from them. It could be that the are mounted in mild durometer bushings and that the increase in stiffness is not that extreme. Besides a stock suspension I think they would also make a nice complement to an upgraded torsion bar setup such as 22/29s.

Regarding the front undermount setup, other than lack of adjustability it seems to work fine. It's pretty much how the front bars are mounted on the 996s, 997s, Boxsters and Caymans and works for them. Bending a bar with higher arms and multiple holes with a drop link to the strut body or control arm, yeah that would be the cat's meow.

Steve,

I am sure I am misunderstanding you when you say...."I have perhaps 200 miles on the new Eibach bars and I would be hard pressed to perceive a difference in the ride between stock and these new bars..." My question is, if that is the case then why change out the stock swaybars to begin with?

Another question for you.

Are you familiar with Elephant Racing's Hollow Adjustable Sway Bar System? If so, what would be the pro's & con's when comparing ER's sway bar vs. say the Eibach sway bar you have mentioned.

Thanks

[Steve W]

Originally Posted by myslateblue911

Steve,

I am sure I am misunderstanding you when you say...."I have perhaps 200 miles on the new Eibach bars and I would be hard pressed to perceive a difference in the ride between stock and these new bars..." My question is, if that is the case then why change out the stock swaybars to begin with?

Another question for you.

Are you familiar with Elephant Racing's Hollow Adjustable Sway Bar System? If so, what would be the pro's & con's when comparing ER's sway bar vs. say the Eibach sway bar you have mentioned.

Thanks

I was afraid my description might be misinterpreted. What I meant was with respect to a degradation of ride quality or any increase in noise, vibration, or harshness (NVH) in comparison to the stock bars, in straight line driving, I don't really notice that much difference on the street or freeways here in Los Angeles. If the road surface though were so bad such as to cause the car to rock side noticeably, then I think you might feel it as rocking the car firmer because the platform of the car is stiffer. Over the same slanted driveways with deep v shaped swails I can feel the car stand on three wheels like with my GT3 which has a very stiff and flat platform.

I am not familiar with the ER hollow bars, but the primary benefit of hollow bars is to decrease weight for the same spring rate, which may be a couple of lbs. The Eibach rear bar is also hollow. But the main difference with all aftermarket bars such as the ER and pretty much every other aftermarket front bar out there vs. the Eibachs, is that you need to drill out the front wheel wells with a 1+" hole and three smaller bolt holes each side to pass the bar through and fasten the mounts, such as on an early 70s 911, then cut off the end link loop on your A arms and weld a new U-tab kit in it's place for the drop links. Not everyone with a SC and 3.2 wants to do that especially to a stock original car as it's not reversible. It is the reason I hesitated to change the bars. But the new Eibach bars don't require any of this. It mounts using the same mounts your stock bars use, so no cutting, welding, or drilling. I would venture to say it's the only adjustable bar set in existence that does not need you to drill and weld to your chassis.


Most of the aftermarket bars are a 22mm diameter bar, which although I never had the ER 22 bars, I used to have Weltmeister 22 bars in my other car which were essentially all the same design, and combined with 22mm f and 29mm r torsion bars. Photos of the car on track showed the car had a lot lean when cornering at the limit with street tires such as Dunlop Direzzas. One could argue that I should at that point be running larger torsions such as 23/31 or larger, and fine tune with small sway bars, but if one were to do that, ride quality on the street is not the primary consideration anymore.


Since the car spent a lot of time on the track and autocrossing, on the recommendation of Rich Walton/JWE, what really made a huge difference was replacing the 22mm Weltmeister bars and installing Smart Racing 31mm front through the body bars, and their 27mm rear bar, what a lot of fast track prepped 911s run. The car was transformed and instantly 2 seconds faster per lap. I could flick the rear end of the car around 180 degrees around a cone at will with the snap of of the throttle and hole shot out. Cornering with r-comps or slicks the car pretty much stayed flat and I could easily control oversteer and understeer with the throttle. Going through slaloms I didn't have to wait for the car to take a set as you're flicking the car side to side. But the SR bars also require drilling through the front chassis to mount, and the 31/27s are like over 300-400% stiffer than the stock bars and for sure you can feel the car ride harder on rough roads when they are set stiff. Such stiff bars I wouldn't recommend for a street car, at least not the 31s/27s.


So with that I feel the Eibach 24 front/25.5 hollow rear bars, combined with their adjustability at least similar to aftermarket 22 bars if not potentially a bit more stiffer, making a good complement to the stock torsions, or upsized torsions such as 22/29s for sport street setup, without altering the chassis in any way.

[Steve W]

Eibach has revised their sway bar design from the initial prototypes you saw in the previous pics for the 1974 and up 911s and further improved their adjustability. They debut this Saturday at Eibach's Porsche event at their headquarters in Corona, CA. I have not seen the final system but here is a teaser pick of the linkages for the front sway bars which will be two way adjustable. The red bushing is Delrin and the monoball hemi joints allows for dialing out of any suspension preload:

[douglas bray]

Went to Eibachtoberfest and picked up a rear bar to go with my Eibach coilovers. They we're practically giving them away with their show discount.

Eibachtoberfest 2017

My car is the #50 rag top pictured.

Will install them this week and let you know my thoughts. Interestingly enough I also got a set of prototype backers made of machine aluminum instead of the stamped steel production bits.

[dynosoar1]

Originally Posted by Steve W

I have perhaps 200 miles on the new Eibach bars and I would be hard pressed to perceive a difference in the ride between stock and these new bars. There's no noise or vibration from them. It could be that the are mounted in mild durometer bushings and that the increase in stiffness is not that extreme. Besides a stock suspension I think they would also make a nice complement to an upgraded torsion bar setup such as 22/29s.

Have you ridden in a 22/29 setup? It seems that would definitely be a track setup....I only ask because I'm about to do torsion bars on my SC. 22/29 would want sport shocks all the way around and then with bigger sways you must be talking track stuff right?

[douglas bray]

Originally Posted by dynosoar1

Have you ridden in a 22/29 setup? It seems that would definitely be a track setup....I only ask because I'm about to do torsion bars on my SC. 22/29 would want sport shocks all the way around and then with bigger sways you must be talking track stuff right?

My lowly cab is that stiff and you'd never guess it was anything but perfect. Yes, I also have revalved Bilsteins all around set up by Juan at Bilstein Poway, but 22/29 is not at all harsh. My car is 2,540#'s too. IIRC my fronts are 21 but my backs are stock plus a 150/80/4 coilover stack. The 80# spring has maybe 1/4" to full compression then it's the 150# spring. It may as well be a bumpstop. It's well beyond a 29mm bar equivalency. I've even got R-compound tires and composite seats and it isn't harsh. Looking forward to stiffer.....