3.6L conversions and CA smog laws (C.A.R.B)

[mradovan]

Hi fellow 911 lovers,

I am looking for first hand experience during 3.6L upgrades in older 911s. 964 or 993 conversions. Any experience with a Vram conversion running a European OBD1 DME or a modified 95 ECU is especially interesting.

Is it possible to get these engines in a 911SC approved by C.A.R.B ?

Thanks for any help or advice.

[Catorce]

I think technically in CA you can legally put in a later motor AS LONG AS it retains the later motor's emissions systems in their entirety. Many people have done this.

Others have done the swap and relied on the inexperience of the smog shops and passed smog anyways without any paperwork whatsoever.......YMMV

[Targa Me]

From what I understand of the CA smog laws, you are not allowed to swap engines of different year vehicles. You are only allowed to swap engines of the same year.
Modified cars using OBD II will be recognized by the smog computer and can cause an immediate failure of the test due to the modification.
If your car is an older 911 then most CA smog techs will not recognize the exact type of motor you have installed.

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by Targa Me

From what I understand of the CA smog laws, you are not allowed to swap engines of different year vehicles. You are only allowed to swap engines of the same year.
Modified cars using OBD II will be recognized by the smog computer and can cause an immediate failure of the test due to the modification.
If your car is an older 911 then most CA smog techs will not recognize the exact type of motor you have installed.

That is not correct. Like Catorce said it must be newer than your chassis (federal law actually) and retain all smog devices. Then you go in front of a BAR ref and get certified. OBD-II will be tested if it is 96 or newer, making a 964 or early 993 engine more desireable. They will check engine serial number. They know how to read a serial number decoder.

For people dead set on going further there is a technically illegal option. Once you have a BAR conversion sticker smog techs tend to get less strict. So often a guy will install some headers or efi once they get the sticker and if the tail pipe is clean they don’t care. But you could get called on it and failed. Not all techs turn a blind eye or take bribes.

[1979-930]

^^^ Not Correct Targa.
You cannot perform and engine swap on a vehicle unless it is at least 7 years old or older. The donor engine has to be the same year or newer as the vehicle. And all of the emissions systems, including CAT converters, in their original configuration have to be installed from the donor vehicle.
So I can put a 2017 Camaro Engine in my 1996 Mustang as long as all of the 2017 emissions regulated parts are installed too.

So to answer the OP, Yes you can.
Perform the swap, make an appointment with the BAR and take the car to the Referee station. They will inspect, run an emissions test and install a special sticker that will allow you to get an emissions test at any SMOG check station, and allow you to legally sell the car, from that point forward.


Edit. Matt beat me to it... Again

[mradovan]

My question really is about the written requirements and what actually is allowed. If CARB is really requiring ALL the emission stuff are these conversion including the info system and the OBD connector? My research suggests this is very tough to do? Is there anyone out there with a Patrick motorsports, Instant G, or DIY setup who has solved this problem?

Matt

[Matt Monson]

Originally Posted by mradovan

My question really is about the written requirements and what actually is allowed. If CARB is really requiring ALL the emission stuff are these conversion including the info system and the OBD connector? My research suggests this is very tough to do? Is there anyone out there with a Patrick motorsports, Instant G, or DIY setup who has solved this problem?

Matt

Yes, they require it all. Back when I lived in CA and we were doing this on Subarus and Hondas they were very particular about all of it. We used to rewire the whole car. They have a check list and emissions diagrams like you see under the hood. Meeting with a ref can take several hours and it is not uncommon to have to go see them 2-3 times after they give you repair orders.

[mradovan]

Thanks for sharing your experience. I still am looking for someone with a 993 conversion who actually has done this. I am staring to wonder if I am on a snipe hunt

[johnsd]

Register it in Nevada. CA is brutal with these counter productive rules. I don’t have experience with your particular swap but I have done a gas to diesel swap on a land cruiser. Pretty straight forward on 97 and older. Was considering a new gas motor but gave up after I heard about all the hassle they put you through. Good luck on the hunt for info, I’m very interested myself.

[mradovan]

My truck is a 97 Dodge Cummins. Everything Cummins is great. Everything Dogge has been replaced with after market part but that is a discussion for a different forum.

Hopefully someone has done this in California.

[sandiego]

For what it is worth, I put a 1990 964 motor in my 1984 Carrera. Instant G harness. 964 heater boxes and cat. Wired and labelled the fog light switch on the dash as a Check Engine Light. Passed BAR in San Diego in one try. Then went to CHP for a new VIN with no problem.

[mradovan]

Thanks for you feedback. I now have 1 data point. Still looking for more firsthand experiences.

[sandiego]

If you plan on doing a legal conversion why not just talk to your local BAR. They should be able to lay out exactly what you may or may not do. Their firsthand experience is better than most responses you will get here. Then talk to Instant-G and/or Patrick Motorsport about what might have to be modified/removed for the motor you have selected. Why go ahead with the conversion never being sure whether or not it will pass.

[runner4fun]

I have a 1982 SC coupe that I am considering doing the same engine swap on. I have spoken with Instant G specifically about the CA emissions requirements for an M64 motor in a CA car. You do keep all the original exhaust system. I plan to contact the local BAR and discuss the issue. As an aside, I am rethinking this plan because several people I've spoken to have advised me to just rebuild the 3L SC engine into a 3.4L (with M64 crank and cams) as that will get me more of the engine I want for my hot rod. One knowledgeable guy said an M64 "is like putting a V-8 in the car". fast but not that fun! I believe Jack Olsen has an M64 in his 1972 911 which he both tracks and drives on the street.........greg

[Trackrash]

Have you seen this thread? It might be worth contacting Mark to discuss.

Converting race car back to street hot rod

I would stay with an OBD 1 motor. Seems the exhaust will be the biggest obstacle.

[runner4fun]

Gordon, thanks for the tip. I just sent Mark a msg asking about a 993 engine swap. I'll be interested to hear what he has to say. Thank you, Greg

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by runner4fun

I have a 1982 SC coupe that I am considering doing the same engine swap on. I have spoken with Instant G specifically about the CA emissions requirements for an M64 motor in a CA car. You do keep all the original exhaust system. I plan to contact the local BAR and discuss the issue. As an aside, I am rethinking this plan because several people I've spoken to have advised me to just rebuild the 3L SC engine into a 3.4L (with M64 crank and cams) as that will get me more of the engine I want for my hot rod. One knowledgeable guy said an M64 "is like putting a V-8 in the car". fast but not that fun! I believe Jack Olsen has an M64 in his 1972 911 which he both tracks and drives on the street.........greg

You cannot utilize the original 964 exhaust heat exchangers and cross over tube as it will interfere with the clutch mechanism on a 915 transmission. A set of '84-'89 Carrera heat exchangers, cat and muffler however will work.

[runner4fun]

Ok thanks for that information. Is your 80SC 3.6 transplant street and smog legal? any advice for someone considering a 3.6L engine transplant for a CA car? Thanks, Greg

[uwanna]

Originally Posted by runner4fun

Ok thanks for that information. Is your 80SC 3.6 transplant street and smog legal? any advice for someone considering a 3.6L engine transplant for a CA car? Thanks, Greg

I am very fortunate to live in Georgia, as there are NO smog tests
for any vehicle over 25 years old regardless of what engine you have
in it! So therefore it is "legal". I have the Carrera heat exchangers with a Dansk cat bypass and Dansk stainless muffler.
That said, back in the day before my car was 25 yrs old, my car
with the 964 motor and cat bypass passed the local smog tests
with flying colors. The 964 3.6 is apperently much cleaner than the 3.0 CIS motor that their smog test assumed was in the car. They didn't care about the newer motor.
One fella you might ask about this is a Pelican who goes by the handle Joe Bob. He used to live in Cali (since moved to Colorado) but knows a lot about the process of getting approved and has a 3.6 in his early car.

[tirwin]

Just throwing this idea out there.

At the local Caffeine & Octane car show it is common to see high value cars with Montana (or maybe it’s North Dakota?) license plates. They do this for tax reasons. Someone told me it is really cheap to do. Something like you create a corporation that owns the car and get a PO box there.

If that was cheap enough, would that be a way to get around CARB?