912 Engine performance ugrade

[69porsche]

Gents.
Different topic "912 Engine performance upgrade"- I like my 912 and thinking about giving it some "punch"..That being said, not interested in dropping a souped up VW engine in my car, all tricked out----if you wanted to increase the punch in your car,WHAT WOULD YOU DO? We are not talking about full engine rebuilds, etc, not power coated eye candy, but a no ****, reliable and mechanically sound engine that can perform. I am looking at street rodding not my thing, not interested in shiny things that look good but offer no value to output of the engine. My car is a non matching number so I can do as I please and I am not interested in selling my kidney to finance a project-welcome all comments, suggestions , etc, etc...this power output only
Thanks
Gordon

[Brett Voigt]

I'm in the same boat. I have a 68' engine in my 69' 912. I've seen a few big bore kits out there that claim to get power output up to 105-110 for around $2500 but I hear they can be unreliable if not cared for and some result in blown engines. Also couldn't hurt to look at some webers and a new exhaust. I'm looking at the karbon konnection Sebring exhaust, which you can find a video of on YouTube. Lightening the car is another option, especially removing the rear seats. Pricier options are fiberglass panels, plexiglass windows, race seats, lightweight wheel (decrease rotational inertia), etc. Mine has the rear seats out, fiberglass engine lid and RS door panels. My future plan is for the Will Hoit engine kit. Jay Leno had it on his show and it seems like the safest option for reliable performance. Only problem is the price...

WR 2132cc Engine Kit - Willhoit Auto Restoration

[Harpo]

I was looking at the same kit. I was hoping that someone else had already purchased one and provide some feed back.

I was also perplexed that they were not using Nickies but instead cast iron cylinders.

David

[69porsche]

Originally Posted by Brett Voigt

I'm in the same boat. I have a 68' engine in my 69' 912. I've seen a few big bore kits out there that claim to get power output up to 105-110 for around $2500 but I hear they can be unreliable if not cared for and some result in blown engines. Also couldn't hurt to look at some webers and a new exhaust. I'm looking at the karbon konnection Sebring exhaust, which you can find a video of on YouTube. Lightening the car is another option, especially removing the rear seats. Pricier options are fiberglass panels, plexiglass windows, race seats, lightweight wheel (decrease rotational inertia), etc. Mine has the rear seats out, fiberglass engine lid and RS door panels. My future plan is for the Will Hoit engine kit. Jay Leno had it on his show and it seems like the safest option for reliable performance. Only problem is the price...

WR 2132cc Engine Kit - Willhoit Auto Restoration

Brett,
I talked with my Porsche mechanic a few days about it, he suggested a VW person can make some changes so today I talked with him and it really depends on what I want and how less$$$ I want to spend on doing this. My 912 is 67, like it as is , but I saw a late 1960's VW Squarback wagon give me a good chase on my 69-911e, I wish I would have stopped him and see what he had in his engine, wnat to keep it all stock the car exterior and keep the rear seats in as its an original interior 50 years old
Gordon

[Brett Voigt]

Originally Posted by Harpo

I was looking at the same kit. I was hoping that someone else had already purchased one and provide some feed back.

I was also perplexed that they were not using Nickies but instead cast iron cylinders.

David

From what I've gathered, Nickies do not help much for the premium you pay. One of my co-workers used nickies in a 2 JZ engine he had in his autocross 350z. Part of it chipped off inside one of the cylinders and nearly totaled the whole thing. I guess that's my bias towards them. From what you read with Jake Raby, the Nickies seem to serve him well in the Type IVs he builds and I hear he's using them in the 964 engine he's building.

I know what your saying about being the first person to try a new part. In my surgical residency they tell us not to be the first surgeon to do a procedure and don't be the last, lol. That in mind for things to progress there always needs to be one person to pave the way. For me, my grandpa is thinking of using the Willhoit kit in a 63' 356 coupe he's rebuilding. Either way, here's the link to the Jay Leno's garage with a 64' 356C that had it.
https://youtu.be/VFeSTvohf94

Leno also had Willhoit do his 63 Carrerra 2...

[cmpski]

Give John Benton a call. He knows 912's. It was his first car and he still owns it.
Tell him Chris Pomares sent you his way.

Benton Performance, LLC


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vbT1JJUBIA0

[WFBowen]

Originally Posted by 69porsche

That being said, not interested in dropping a souped up VW engine in my car, all tricked out

Let's not forget that the 356/912 Porsche motor just might be the most radically modified VW motor ever. I've seen lots of modified 912 motors over the years and, with the exception of those intended for racing applications, it's easy to reach a point of major trade-offs. I'm certain that the Porsche engineers had tested engines with significantly more power output, but it probably represented a point of diminishing returns for street driven cars. IMO, what we used to call a 'tight' motor, i.e. one with full compression and with everything up to factory specs, probably represents the best solution for street performance and dependability. Let's face it - the Porsche engineers worked on these motors for decades and had the expertise of Solex, Bosch and others at their disposal and settled on the 912 as the final version. Hard to top that.
Bill

[Brett Voigt]

I think Porsche limited the output of the 912 because they wanted to sell more 911's. For example, the 356 Carrera 2 put out something like 130-140 stock. Granted I have no idea how reliable the Carrera 2 is/are, but I think one could reliably build a stock 616 engine up to similar performance measures just as long as they maintain it well.

All that in mind, probably wouldn't hurt to dyno your 912. It would be a nice base to build off of and would be interesting to know how many ponies were lost over the years.

[Jaems]

Pickup Duane Spencer's "The Complete Porsche 912 Guide".

It has all the info on a building a high performance 912 engine, from street to track.

[cmpski]

The Carrera 2 engine is a totally different animal. It has almost nothing in common with a 616. I looked at building a 616 before I went in a different direction. I talked to Mr Spencer, Mr Benton, Mr Wilhoit, etc. To make over 125hp and make it last a long time costs mucho denero. The main bearing journals are a LONG ways apart. 912 cranks break and highly stressed stock cranks are hard pressed to handle big power for long periods of time which means you need a forged crank for starters.
Here is a 3 main bearing OHV 912 case and crank and a 5 main bearing OHC 2cam4 POLO case and crank. They are about the same price as a Wilhoit built 2.1 liter. The kit is a lot less but building a 2.1 without his experience might be more costly in the long run.
Chris

[Brett Voigt]

A POLO engine would be really cool. Especially with the power they put out, but from what I understand, they cost more than my 912 is worth. This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyways... is there any way to do a DIY POLO engine?

[69porsche]

After doing much research, I will keep my Porsche engine as is and not do any modifications to enhance the performance. I talked with a few reputable companies, but doing a rebuild and or performance upgrade or engine swap is not my priority for now...could be later, but I have other cars to deal with and wanted to see what's out there.
Gordon

[cmpski]

Originally Posted by Brett Voigt

A POLO engine would be really cool. Especially with the power they put out, but from what I understand, they cost more than my 912 is worth. This is probably a dumb question, but I'll ask it anyways... is there any way to do a DIY POLO engine?

Dean sells a "kit". It's less than a turn key but you'll have to source parts.
Here is his site. Polo Motors
Chris

[69porsche]

Originally Posted by Brett Voigt

I'm in the same boat. I have a 68' engine in my 69' 912. I've seen a few big bore kits out there that claim to get power output up to 105-110 for around $2500 but I hear they can be unreliable if not cared for and some result in blown engines. Also couldn't hurt to look at some webers and a new exhaust. I'm looking at the karbon konnection Sebring exhaust, which you can find a video of on YouTube. Lightening the car is another option, especially removing the rear seats. Pricier options are fiberglass panels, plexiglass windows, race seats, lightweight wheel (decrease rotational inertia), etc. Mine has the rear seats out, fiberglass engine lid and RS door panels. My future plan is for the Will Hoit engine kit. Jay Leno had it on his show and it seems like the safest option for reliable performance. Only problem is the price...

WR 2132cc Engine Kit - Willhoit Auto Restoration

Brett,
checking up on this old post and see any updates--I bought a BBK from Stoddard and yet to have it installed-that being said I am in pause as I sell one vehicle so I can put effort and $$ in the 912---as for Engine rebuild, I will go that way after I sell one of my British cars. I am sure theere are other issues that need to be addressed with this Willhoit 2.1 Kit, like suspension, perhaps cooling and maybe transmission, etc, etc....I will shoot an email to get more info. I got my 68 Jaguar E type back after a year from a full engine, tranny and suspension rebuild, cooling, etc...makes all the difference but the 912 is a keeper so I am looking into what I need to give it that extra punch, and on the road for years to come.

[matt930s]

Second this; it's a great book with a ton of info for all parts of the car.

Originally Posted by Jaems

Pickup Duane Spencer's "The Complete Porsche 912 Guide".

It has all the info on a building a high performance 912 engine, from street to track.

[69porsche]

Originally Posted by matt930s

Second this; it's a great book with a ton of info for all parts of the car.

Matt,
I have the book as well-However I am not mechanically inclined and while it does have good info, there have been other improvements-so I will farm my car out when the time is right to get the engine, tranny and suspension rebuilt. BTW, How is your 912 performing? are you doing any upgrades be it engine or anything else?
Gordon

[matt930s]

Hi Gordon-
My 912 runs good; I feel like it has a little extra oomph, so I suspect a big bore kit. I may be wrong, I've never owned another 4 cylinder Porsche before this one. It has a "on cam" feel to it when I accelerate hard.

Since I just dropped my 78 SC's 3.0 motor for a top end refresh, I won't be pulling the 912 motor for some time.

The things I need to address with the 912 are : front pan, suspension and some oil leaks.....

MattR

[69porsche]

Matt,
Sounds like you have your work cut out for you! I have never owned a 4 cylinder Porsche and my only other Porsche was a 1969-911E that I sold in Dec--- prior to this my car has some push, so I suspect that it does have a BBK installed- My ideal plan would be to get an engine rebuild and see what the 912 and see the difference and use that as my baseline to do anything different or simply leave it alone (engine wise)-I have to address my transmission and suspension and some electrical next. and down the road, exterior and interior--would like to meet up with you one of these days and see your 912.
Gordon

[Fixer]

Put your 616 on the rack and build a powerful Type 4. They require big buck to make marginal increases.

Mine is a 2.0L out of a 914, Mild cam, 9:1 CR, balanced, et cetera for 140 BHP with Webers.

Type 4 torque stock is around 150 lb-ft which is the same torque an early flat 6 makes but 200 pounds lighter.

I will be building a low compression FI / turbo type 4 that will hang with 3.2L Carreras all day. There's a 914 racecar with a 2.0L turbo Type 4 in it already for $7000.

To build from scratch Type 4s are not all that expensive. You will spend $12000 on a mild fat performance motor with 140 BHP. These guys are the best BTW.

My good friend John Innaurato is running a 2.0L turbo type 4 in his 914 with 9 lbs of boost for well over a decade and many miles. 180 BHP and no issues ever.

These motors can be shifted at 7000 rpm all day.

Type 4s were an evolution of the Type 1, developed to make torque, better oiling, cooling. Very durable, usually when cracked open with 300k miles the bottom end is fine just needing new bearings and no machine work. Mains are bigger than a Type 1.
They also use a spin on oil filter.

Mine is modded to oil even better. I removed the oil filter to use this location as my sump scavenge as well as removed my stock oil cooler for my inlet (pressure side) which is a direct path right to my main bearings..

Also Note PORSCHE redesigned the heads for the 2.0L Type 4 motor you see in the pic below. So it's got that too

I'm cooling and filtering remotely with an Earl's oil filter and home made 'trombone' cooler.

Total oil capacity 8-9 quarts.

Long block only weighs 170 lbs.




This fat motor will give any POLO powered 912 a real run !

http://search.myway.com/search/video.jhtml?n=783952f3&p2=%5ECG7%5Exdm064%5ETTAB02%5Eus&pg=video&pn=1&ptb=5E770594-E66B-489B-A05C-7630EAA62683&qs=&searchfor=fat+performance+type+4&si=CNaWp6eqsNICFQmBswodlhYCdQ&ss=sub&st=site&tpr=sbt

[69porsche]

Fixer,
Appreciate the insight and wisdom, however I don't have the tools,resources or aptitude. But you seem to be doing well and immersed in the project-you should do mine! problem solved!
Gordon