4 or 5 point harness options???

[DDS]

I'm getting tired of holding up passengers in hard right turns, and my seat belt retractors are tired (I did disassemble and rewind them, but they are still tired.)
Any particular brand or configuration of harness that works well in a 914? This car has been set up with flares, 245's, SC brakes, stiffened, etc so it does generate some G's. It will be primarily street driven with the occasional autocross, DE or track day.

Many thanks!

Dave

[jurhip]

I think 5 points are overkill on the street. The 5th strap is really only for anti-submerging (going under the lap belts) It doesn't help for any lateral loads.

Are you considering a cam-lock design or a regular push button such as used in 3-point belts. I don't believe you can get 5-points in anything but cam-lock.

[DDS]

Thanks for the reply.

From my impromptu internet research:

I've found four buckle systems, two street, two track.
The track systems are either 5 or 6 point using either cam-lock or a 'stack and latch' deal of thick folded steel. The cam lock is much spendier, the other is not really refined, but might be OK.
The street systems I've seen have either a push button release or lift to release (like on an airplane) type buckles.
There are four point street systems that look appropriate, and use 2" belts which would probably meet my needs, I'm guessing that 3" webbing might be uncomfortable. Momo has one, racer's choice has one.
It seems that the five point is kind of an entry level race system and you can use it without the anti-submarine strap. True, it is probably overkill, and any skirted passengers might not appreciate it.

Just wondering what these things are like to live with, and beyond the obvious, what installation wrinkles might exist....

[Zeke]

It's not the belts as much as it is the seat. Sure, you could cinch down on the belts so tight that you don't move, but that's not the point. Get a good seat like the Renagade. A 3" lap belt won't be noticable when worn. Any shoulder harness will as you cannot lean forward at all. There is no inertia system available. The anti sub belt should only be used with a seat made for that application. Search over on the 991 BBS. There is a belt system that they use which is OK for AutoX, but not rated for time trails or racing. Sort of a higher safety rating for street. I hate the serach function here or I'd do it for you.

[LarryP]

I just (last week) bought Deist five point cam locks and a harness bar from Stable Energies (http://www.stable-energies.com/). The SE people are great to deal with, the belts go in easily enough and work simply, and if you don't want to use the crotch strap, then don't. But they are 3" wide and you have the extra strap so if you want to go play sometime, you can. I am pleased with them anyway.

[DDS]

harnesses: what works/legal?
Thanks.
This thread. Hmm, quite a safety discussion on being held upright (with respect to the seat...) in a rollover as the roof caves in. I can't imagine a three point being safer than four under the vast majority of accident conditions. More research required! I had hoped to get away with and ultra thin seat cushion and that harness for my occasional high-G exploits. Will anything but a three point setup work with the stock seats? Maybe the two shoulder straps will be too far apart.
I'll ask those stable energies folks about the safety side of things.

Thanks again.

[Biggy72]

I think a 3" belt would be more comfortable because there's a greater amount of surface area on your body. I had a 5 point with the stack up type system in my race car. Had a hard head on collision and smashed the front end in to about the middle of the front tires. I wasn't even sore the next day...but I've got pretty strong neck muscles. With a 5 point you cna just leave off the crotch belt and then it's a 4 pt. I'm not sure about how good the stock seats are though since they're not built for a harness and they're fiberglass so they won't take much strain. I'm sure you could modify the seats with a hole in the center to accomodate the belts though.

[LarryP]

Do your research and balance your risks. For me the likelihood of having a roof crush is less than the benefit of being secure. I agree, btw, that most of being retained is in the seats but the belts certainly help too. I am not too concerned about the strength of the 914 seat; I have the shoulder belts over the harness bar soi they do not go through the seat and when I use the crotch strap, it goes over the seat front.

[Joe Bob]

A guy named Lucas sells replacement seatbelts....he's a pain in the a$$ but his help is cool. wwwpeparts.com I have some of his stuff.

The four/five point harnesses are not DOT approved for the street and COULD get you a citation from an anal retentive cop.....

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Schroth makes at least some five-point harnesses that are DOT legal. I don't know of anyone else who does.

I have a six-point harness in my car for time trialing, with the stock seat. I use the stock three-point belt for the street. The six-point harness makes it awfully tough to look around when backing up, and restricts your movement quite a bit.

My setup is legal (just) for PCA Zone 7, but not for anywhere else that I know of.

The shoulder belts are attached directly to the harness bar (a no-no in some places), and come back from my shoulders at something kind of near a 90-degree angle. There is no interference at all with the seat--but I have a long torso. Those with less torso length may wind up having the shoulder belts hit the edges of the seat, which would be bad.

The lap belts are attached to forged eyebolts that thread into the stock lap belt mounting points. No problems.

The belts are six-point belts because they have a dual sub strap. I'll get into the "why" for that in a moment. The two sub straps are mounted to the same eyebolts as the lap belts. In many places, it's a no-no to have two belts attach at the same point, so this would be illegal in (for instance) SCCA or PCA club racing. The sub strap lays on the seat and then comes up between the legs to attach to the buckle.

Contrary to what you would think, the sub strap's primary function in anything but a lay-down-to-drive formula car is not to keep you from going under the belts. Its main function in a street car (or street car based racer) is to keep the lap belt in position--snug and low across your hips. That keeps you in place the best in the event that The Worst happens.

Why a six-point setup? Because I didn't want to cut holes in my stock seats. The two belts sit on top of the seat, going under your legs, and then go to the lap belt attachments. I was very strongly advised not to run a single sub-strap forward around the front of the seat. Why? Because it turns the buckle so that the front edge is pushing into your abdomen. Guess what happens if you hit something? The edge of the buckle cuts into you... Not a happy thing... So I went with the six-points.

I'm still not completely sold on them, but they are legal in the venues where I want to run.

--DD

[jnp914]

Dave,

Just where can shoulder harness belts not be directly attached to the harness bar?

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Most sanctioning bodies far prefer to see them attached at the firewall. I believe that SCCA and PCA Club Racing, among others, both require that.

--DD

[jnp914]

SCCA racing I am familiar with, and you will not take to the track without an approved roll cage, so the harness bar, at least for me, would be a moot point.

As for PCA club racing, I do not know much about the classes. Is it possible to have a full on, wheel to wheel race with cars that do not at a minimum have a roll bar?

I guess I was thinking more along the lines of DEs, etc and not wheel-to-wheel racing when I considered the harness bar.