Modern fuel injection/ignition on type 4?

[sammyg2]

Has anyone ever tried to just take a modern fuel injection/ignition system and bolt it onto a type 4? Something with crank fire and 4 coils. I'm not talking about a do it yourself or custom system, I'm thinking a factory design for a similar engine. I hate re-inventing the wheel.

Seems like a system off a later model VW or Audi 4 cylinder would work, all you would have to do is to hook up the sensors and computer and match the injectors for the right duty cycle. Stock injectors would work fine I would think.
I bet I could source a good one out of a pick a part real cheap.
Maybe just a dumb idea. I know of CIS systems being installed, anything more modern?

Anyone?

[Jake Raby]

Yep done it........ Got 5K to invest?? Stock injectors won't cut it for more than a stock engine...

[mike95125]

Yo sammy,
for ignition the early 90's Ford EDIS system is what you want. If you go to the junkyard and look for an escort arround that era you will find one.
http://www.superstallions.com/tech/elect/edis/edis.shtml
http://www.jsm-net.demon.co.uk/megasquirtnedis/us-edis4.html

Check out the above links for some info. I am planning on doing the six cyliner one on my corvar conversion.
You will need to get the EEC-IV computer to have it automatically adjust your timing, as wel as the 36-1 toothed gear, wheel sensor, EDIS controller, and the coil packs. With the EEC-IV computer you will get wasted spark characteristics at lower RPMs. It will work without the EEC-IV computer, but it will keep your timing steady. You can link a Mega squirt to the EDIS in place of the EEC-IV and program it to do all of the adjustments.
HTH
Mike

[Ron Meier]

Quote: I am planning on doing the six cyliner one on my corvar conversion.


Hmmmmmm - he's doin' a Corvair engine swap and can't even spell it. This is gonna be interesting.

[mike95125]

Its a weak man that attacks a persons spelling

[M. Hendrix]

... a weak man with a strong odor.

I HAVE THE ENEMY ON THE oDAR SCREEN!!


M - I can't sleep.

[sammyg2]

My original idea was to try and set up a stock type 4 with a precise modern system without spending $5k or designing a custom system.

In other words, take the O2 sensor, computer, manifold pressure sensor or air flow sensor, throttle position sensor, crank posistion sensor, and whatever else is used off a car and simply install it on a type 4. There are plenty of them out there, I bet I could pull it off for $100 without too much trouble. The only part that might be a hassle would be the crank trigger. Again, I would try to stay as close to the original design as possible.
i know someone who took a breakerless ignition system off a junkyard VW and istalled it in his 914 distributor and it works great, his cost was around $30. Parts are also very easy to find and cheap.

[John Rogers]

Why? The heads and combustion chambers are so poor that I would doubt that a modern FI/Ignition system would help the power, although a turbo would(Sam knows that). As a project to just do it, then that would be neat.

[JmuRiz]

I guess the only thing to look at is the firing order of the 4 or 6 cyl motor. Then you'd be all set. I guess it'd just take some troubleshooting...can't be that hard can it?

Nathan
PS: Could go for the Subaru route (flat 4, or flat 4 turbo) or the VW route to keep it REAL haha

[Bleyseng]

Several guys have or done the Megasquirt swap.I have driven one of the cars and it worked great.
Check it out at the 914club.com BBS.

Geoff

[pbanders]

re: John Roger's comments...

Converting a T4 from D-Jet to a modern FI system, without mechanical modifications to the motor (e.g. increased displacement, higher compression, bigger valves/head work, bigger TB, exhaust improvement, camshaft, etc.) will not result in any power increase, from dyno comparisons we've seen posted here. If you're going to go the route of modifying the engine, then the cheapest solution is to go with carburetors. Driveability can still be good if you don't go to wild. Jake Raby has demonstrated that the T4 is capable of a lot of power/torque with his various setups, and adding modern FI would be nice, but likely very costly in comparison to carbs.

Most D-Jet cars that I've seen where the owner wanted to chuck the system could be fixed for far less cost than the conversion. Many also were attributing problems to the FI system that were either mechanical, electrical, ignition, or fuel supply issues. None of these would likely "go away" by doing a costly FI conversion.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

There is no bolt-on system that I know of; at the very least you'd need to mess with manifolding and such. Modern injectors do not mount to the intake the same way that 914 injectors do, and those are the only manifolds that will fit without some work.

A semi-modern FI has been fitted to the Type IV on a number of occasions. http://www.sandrail.com/millerfi/ Ed V used this on his car (1910cc big-bore 1.7) before he went Turbo. The system was adapted to the Turbo setup, and works very well. Fabrication was indeed needed, though.

I think the easiest to fit "modern" FI system that you will find is Megasquirt, though.

--DD

[Alfred1]

KitCarlson has made a modern efi system for the 914 that's being tested right now.

[sammyg2]

Aw, you guys are no fun. I was hoping someone would say it can't be done so I would at least have some incentive.

As far as power improvement goes, the only thing that would be of any real advantage would be a more accurate spark, prolly not much difference.

The big advantage would be a more reliable and accurate fuel injection system with readily available parts that don't cost an arm and a leg (like a new D-jet manifold pressure sensor for example). Good old Delco sensors that last for well over 100,000 miles and are available for $20 at pep boys just sounds nice.
I would expect a smoother and cleaner running engine and a little bit of an improvement in mileage also.

As an example, the fuel injection system I had on my chebby pick-em-up truck was extremely simple and reliable. It was throttle body injection and it took me less than 10 minutes to remove the entire system from the vehicle when I had to replace some intake manifold gaskets once. It wasn't crank fired, but those are available too.
Maybe I'll start simple and move up. Chebby built alot of 4 cylinders with throttle body injection, that would be real easy to install in a 914 and would definitely be under the $100 price tag from a pick-a-part.
I would much prefer that to the megasquirt, the idea of building it from scratch just doesn't work for me, I'd rather have an OEM spend a few million dollars in R&D that to try and do it myself.

I also don't like carbs on a street 914. Not precise, most folks lose fuel mileage with them, tempermental, rough running, etc.
Not everyone has these problems with carbs but to me it just isn't the right way to go for what I want.

Guess I need to make a trip to the junkyard this weekend to see what's out there.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

TBI? Ugh. The long intake runners of the Type IV engine are gonna cause you some grief there. Lots of manifold wetting, methinks. Maybe a heated manifold would help on that??

Remember that most (all??) of the TBI cars are I-4 or V configuration engines, with relatively short intake paths that can (and usually are) heated pretty quickly by the engine. (Most especially the V engines!)

--DD

[pbanders]

Originally posted by kdfoust
I keep hearing about the expensive of a MPS. Knowing a number of 914 owners I realize that $15 could be considered expensive.


How much is a MPS?

How about around $1000 for a new Bosch unit?

Rebuilt (exchange) units can be purchased for about $250. Be aware, however, that according to a report on Rennlist from a person who visited the rebuilder, they calibrate ALL the MPS's they sell to the same calibration standard curve. Great, if your car is the one they originally profiled, not so great if it's not.

[Toast]

In response to Pbanders:
I agree with carburetors being the lest expensive way to go for an upgrade. I went from a zenith to 40IDF on my 1776VW engine, and that helped with the unreliability issue. Then when I went from 40's to 44's....wow.....that made a huge difference. Of course this led to the complete rebuild (the 2nd time in 5 months ) of the engine to upgrade all the things Pbanders mentioned: bigger heads, higher compression ratio, exhaust (i think i tried 4 before one was finally appropriate ).

All of this leads me to my next statement:
WARNING!! The " inexpensive" method of upgrading carburators will lead you to to extreme expense of engine rebuild(s) to accomodate the carbs!!!
Ok, I know sammyg2, you said you didnt want carbs anyway. Just wanted to throw my thought in.

[Dave Bell]

Yo Sammy -

I talked to a guy who put a Digifant II system off of a VW Golf or Jetta onto a 2 liter..... somewhere on my home computer I may havesome info stashed away.... but that is what he used.

System has knock feedback and the guy also hooked up a turbo and said the system worked great on pump gas up to 18 psi boost!... Said he tried a variety of other ignition systems with the Turbo set up and the Digifant system gave them excellent performance. I quizzed him numerous times on the 18 psi figure and no knocking and he was adamant about it working well.

- Dave

[Kitcarlson]

Hey!

Just got wind of this topic.

Development of the D-Jet upgrade is going well. A test unit has been delivered to Brad Roberts of "all914" for evaluation and feedback.

The unit is very simple to install and will be sold as a turnkey system. It is simpler than the original D-Jet, no FI trigger points or cold start injector required. The ignition sensor is solid state. The system is easily tuned for engine modifications. The distributor mechanical and vacuum advance are replaced by non-mechanical electronic means, with easy adjustment.

The stock injectors for a 2.0L can flow 380cc/min, or enough for ~ 300hp. Any larger injectors and the idle quality could suffer. The idle injector time is ~2.0mS close to the "~1.5mS time to open". The injectors are sufficient for NA applications. It would be hard to get enough air through the manifolds without a turbo.

Brad Anders is very correct, the stock D-Jet in correct tune is a very good system for a stock engine. The EMS unit can be tuned for non-stock applications. The upkeep for the ignition system is less(no rotor,cap, points to replace). The EMS cost will be economical and a good value, compared to buying a new MPS and other critical parts for the D-Jet. No where near $5000 for this one.

Dave http://home.mindspring.com/~dave.c/kitcarlson/

[mike95125]

Junkyard!! Ya Babay!! Friday!!