Front main....while I'm at it....

[karlp]

Pulled the motor to replace the front main seal. Found it to be old and brittle and dumping oil all over. The fan would then sling it all over, especially right side. T'was hard to pin point.

while I'm at it........
Pulled the heads because I have excessive oil burning and crankcase flatulence. I have not managed to separate the heads from the cylinders so I left them together and pulled them off together. They are still stuck tightly together on the bench.

Any ideas??

The pistons are marked 92.97 and have an 'm' with an arrow pointing to the rear of the engine. Hope this is right.
I see no scuffing or scoring on the pistons but I do see some interesting looking "erosion" at the intake and exhaust sides, above the first ring just below the crown of the piston. When I bought it it had no air filter and had obviously been run that way. There was AL red clay all the way down to the intake manifold.
I did a quick check of ring end gap and found it to be ~.108 in. My book says something like .010 in.
When I get the cylinders loose, I'll measure them. I'm hoping to get by with rings only

The case is marked EC004838 on top and S1 12 004.101.
102A and S1 12 004.101.101A left and right on the bottom.

Any significance to this? Have I got an incredibly rare case that I could trade to Jake R for one of his complete 2270's??

Shopping list so far:
Rings
Pushrod tube seals
front main and o-ring
valve cover gaskets
exhaust coppers

I'll keep you all posted. Thanks a lot

karl

[Ron Meier]

EC engine code is a 1.8 L. Bore is 93 mm with stroke at 66 mm.

Since this was a "smog engine" ~ 7.3:1 compression, 76 Hp - and you have "eroded" pistons, it may have been run REAL lean and vaporized the aluminum alloy ~ the engine would have been running real hot. It would be very interesting to see the combustion chambers to see if they have been eroded in the same manner.

The second reason for "erosion" could have been detnotation (bad gas, too much advance, etc....,). This can break away the upper portion of the piston to the first ring land. If you have a chance to inspect the rod bearings, they would look like they had been pounded to death.

The red "Alabama" mud in the intake tract would mean, to me, that this engine sat, without an aircleaner (and probably no rain tray) for an extended period of time. Dirt would not stick to the intake runners while running. You would also have to mix water into the equation. This water could have set up a corrosion cell between the cast iron cylinders and the aluminum heads (I would also think that the rings would be "corroded" to the cylinder walls (pits in the cylinder walls).

If you need 1.8 used cyls & pistons and heads, I may be able to help (means I would have to inspect the engines I have to see if I have good an EC setup). Locally, you can go get P&Cs / heads from a VW bus - they are the same.

Good Luck!

[karlp]

Thanks Ron-
I may take you up on some of those parts.
I've seen the lean and detonation piston eating you are talking about in motorcylcle engines. This doesn't really look like that.
It appears that all four head/cyls leaked at the top, right by the spark plug hole. I believe I can get the cylinder joint flat again, the heads are another matter. I have heard the term "flycutting" used. Does this mean milling some of the material from the head where the cylinder meets to form a flat surface?

Thanks for your help
Karl

[Ron Meier]

"Flycutting" is esentially the same thing as "milling" a head or "surfacing" a block. It restores the flat surface (perpendicular to the crank center line) for the cylinders to seal against.

It is done on a vertical mill that uses a circular cutting tool the "same" diameter as the top of the cylinder. Shouldn't cost that much to "square" the heads.

Generally, the material removed can be 0.002" to 0.005". To raise combustion ratio, you cut more (lessens the volume of the combustion chamber, but moves valves closer to the piston).

Get a good machinist in your area to do it.

If you go looking for heads, the OEM number should start with "029" ( 1.7s are "021" and 2.0 Porsche are "039")

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

92.97 would be the diameter in MM of the piston. That's for a 93mm cylinder, which was used on 1.8s. Engine code "EC" was the case used for the US-spec 1.8s.

Sounds like you have a stock-ish 1.8 motor.

To remove the heads from the cylinders (so far only done with the cylinders still on the engine) I have used one of my favorite tools: A copper-faced mallet. The copper, being a soft metal, is less prone to damage what you hit with it.

I used a technique from John Muir's VW "Idiot Book"--I whacked on the top of the cylinder head (mostly) with the mallet. That broke the seal between the cylinders and the head. When you whack on fins, make sure to hit in line with the fin--fins are much stronger along their line than from the side or an angle!

You will probably wind up hitting the cylinders instead of the head (depends on how you can hold the whole deal still--I imagine the easiest way is to clamp the head in a vise). Hit in an area where you are hitting more than one or two fins, and make sure you're hitting them squarely. Use a lot of medium-strength whacks, not a couple really strong ones.

Good luck!!

--DD

[karlp]

Thanks for the replies on flycutting. I have a buddy at a machine shop who owes me a favor or two. It looks like if I take .003-.005 off it ought to be flat again.
The cylinders are loose, warmed them up with my propane and whacked them once or twice. I'm moving slow because I have more time than money.
I got a set of rings locally. The oil ring is in three parts;wavy spring thing, upper and lower scraper.
Any concerns with these?
I can return if so.

I would like to replace the exhaust studs in the heads. They won't hold again I don't think.
Any tricks to getting them out?
I double nutted and heated two of them, but it seemed they were on the verge of stripping. I can get long nuts and probably use them as is, but now seems the time to replace.

I need a set of wrist pin keepers also. Does pelican sell them separately?

Thanks for all your help.

Karl

karl-
The rings - Locally? As in Alabama? Is it a bus engine or 914? If 914 then do we have a semi-local parts source for emergencies and backup?

TIA

[Joe Ricard]

most of my parts come from PP. As often as UPS comes to my door you would think Dale Jarrett would stop by at least once!!!
Gautier Ms. has strictly (no foriegn) auto parts store.

[karlp]

Shawn-
I got the rings and a few other items at M&D Foreign auto on Springhill Ave. in Mobile. They have been pretty good. I went there once on a whim and asked for a clutch cable and the clerk was as surprised as I that they had it.
The rings are the same as for a 1.8 L bus.
The pistons are back on the motor, I need to find someone to hone the cylinders.
Can I do it myself well enough?
I read in here to heat the pistons in the oven and cool the wrist pins in the freezer. Worked like a charm, pistons ~325 F
Still concerned about wrist pin keepers and exhaust studs. Need to get it back this together, this has me driving my dumpy truck.

Thanks for all your help

Karl P.

[Ron Meier]

For a quick hone, get a "bottle brush" cylinder hone from your local AP store.

Honing is an art, but your trying to obtain a 60 degree crosshatch with the hone marks if you are using cast iron rings. Otherwise, ask the AP store what degree of crosshatch is required for your rings.

Use a 1/2 drill. Oil the bore, place bottle brush in bore, start the hone and move in and out rapidly about 10 times. Wipe bore and look at crosshatch. If the lines are about 45 - 60 degree intersect, you've done the best that you can.

DO NOT OVERHONE ~ you are removing metal and you don't want to over enlarge clearance between your pistons and cylinders.

Bus rings are the same. The expander ring is the "wavy thing" in conjunction with two thin rings. This third ring is popularly called the oil control ring. Generally. the two thin ones sit on top of the wavy one.

You'll also have to set your ring gap on the first and second rings.

Get the Tom Wilson book, if you have no previous experience.

[karlp]

Got the honer as suggested and gave it a whirl. Should be no problem. The hone "density" is not what I have seen when I have them done by a pro, but I will try again on the other three.

What about matching cylinders to heads?
I find that the cylinders do not touch evenly all the way around. I have decarbonized all the parts and plan to get the heads flycut, but I am not sure that will make them mate evenly. What I did was put some blueing on the head and put the cylinder in place. I leaned on it and rotated the cylinder slightly. The blueing was removed in two sections but not evenly all the way around. I can't believe the head bolts would pull it together. Is there a procedure for mating the cylinders to heads?

Still looking for wrist pin keepers and a solution to the exhaust studs.

Thanks for any help you can offer.
Happy new year!!

Karl P.

[Ron Meier]

Assuming the top of the cylinder is square to the bore, flycutting the heads will take care of the problem.

You can also get some "valve lapping paste" and lap the cylinders to the heads. This will supposedly mate the two surfaces. Place a small amount on the top of the cylinder, place in head and rotate back and forth semi-rapidly. Problem is applying equal pressure around the circumference of the cylinder.

To make life easy, instead of the pin locks, get a set of teflon buttons. They locate the pins perfectly.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Have the heads flycut to true up the sealing surfaces. Use some wet-dry paper on a piece of glass to flatten the sealing surface at the top of the cylinder. Then try with the blueing again.

Lapping the cylinders to the heads is favored by some. No direct experience myself...

--DD

[karlp]

Engine is back together again and seems happy.
I had to get the wrist pin lock rings from the local Porsche dealership, so it held me up for a while.
The heads look like they had been flycut at least once before. My friendly machinist pointed out that if he went any deeper, the first step on the cylinder would contact the head before the sealing edge of the cylinder contacted inside the head. I lapped the cylinder/head joint and blueing indicates good contact. Who is to say both cylinders are the same length now, or both cylinder holes in each head are the same depth?? Put it back together without sealing rings.

I would like to run the motor on the bench before installing it in the car. I am thinking of 2X4's from each side of the front mounting bar, going back to a third going left-right under the tail of the transmission and tied to the transmission mounts.

Any warnings??

Karl P.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

If you do a full overhaul, you are the one who says that the cylinders are the same length, the distance from the centerline to where the cylinders seat is the same, and so on and so forth. That's one of the things that makes for a high-quality rebuild--all the "important stuff" like that gets measured.

Since you were just doing a top-end, you have to trust (hope) that the previous builder did the measurements, and did them correctly.

--DD

[JP Noonan]

Well after flycutting and a valve job you should cc the heads to see what volume they are. Then you find the deck height of each cylinder. To adjust deck height, therefore CR, you add a shim to the bottom of the cylinder in between it and the block. Or you can change CR by sinking the valve, but for a VW the shims are the way to go.

There really isn't much correlation between CR and dynamic compression, but now that the motors back together about your only option is to do a compression test to see if at least on that level all the cylinders are the same. If you used assembly lube the motor should put out some high numbers, in the 140 PSI range??? Once everything is running awhile it will maybe go down until the rings seat and then go back up.

The engine stand you talk about should be O.K. but remember any motor will kick around something wicked if it isn't firing on all cylinders. Other than that keep the fuel supply (gas can with hoses going to it) far away from the exhaust and intake in case they back fire, and screw the fuel pump down to something or it will twist around like an attacking alligator. I hook up the pump and everything else on the motor first then connect the battery so any sparks are away from the motor.

Figure out how to shut down the motor, i.e. disconnect the +12v to the dizzy, don't just disconnect the battery or you might fry the diodes in the alt.

[karlp]

Ran it last night with the simplest of wiring and a screwdriver across the starter. Started right up and sounded smooth. Those first 10-15 seconds are nerve-wracking.
Looking for oil leaks. That's why I took it out in the first place, I think.

Thanks for all your help, and the help of this MB. Without it I would not have attempted this.

Now I want to build a turbocharged, 12:1 CR, 2.8 L, nitrous burner. Maybe next week.