914 GT Flares Project...

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

ShawnO, I believe you hit on the answer already.

We had real Porsche flares in stock for a good while a number of years back. A long while, as I recall. Eventually someone bought them, but I think the price had been discounted substantially. They simply didn't move.

Then we found another source for them. A lot of people were very excited, and a lot of interest was expressed. So we listed them again for the prices you see--and I'm not sure we've even sold one set...

So yes, we carry them. Why are we trying to find cheaper repros? Because nobody will pay fill price for the real thing. Even if the repros are different (yes, Jim, they are all four corners unique--so a uni-flare would have to be different from the originals) if they are cheap there is a much greater chance that 914 people will buy them.

There seems to be a very real demand for steel 914 flares at the $500-750 price point. Witness AA's statement about "well over 100 deposits". The real problem seems to be in producing a reasonable product at that price point that allows the seller to make enough profit to stay in busines...

--DD

[mike mueller]

Back to Waynes original question:

A "uni-fit" flare?

Well, you have people that buy the steel GT flares because they
have to have the factory GT steel flares.
(vintage racing) so you can count that group out.

A lot of folks like the look of the GT flares so if the uni-flare looked pretty darn close,then that market might be open to you.

Some folks cannot weld or don't have access to a welder or cannot afford to pay someone to weld, so the fiberglass flares are easier for them.......one market closed.

So, yes , there will be a market for them, but not many.
I wouldn't spend my money on building them and haveing them sit on a shelf waiting for them to sell unless the profit margin was favorible.

[Malevolentfrog]

I have been reading the posts in here and I am suprized at what I have been reading. I need to tell You alittle of My background and then maybe You will understand. I have been involved with racing allmost 35 years in one way or the other. I started racing motocross when i was but 12 years old. My father raced Dirt track cars most of his life. And got Me and My Brother started racing stock cars before We could even legaly drive on the road. I progressed up to modifieds and then got really involved with Motorcycles. Back in 1974 Me and Scott Truett, Of Truett and Osborn cycles. Built a K model sportster that We set a World Record with that still stands to this day. My partnership with Scott is still great. Did I mention that Scott is the current world record holder in the 1/4 mile for drag Bikes. When We were told that there was no way a Staged Clutch could be adapted to a Top Fuel Bike did We quit. NO! And if any of You go to the All Harley drag racing assoc. Bike drags You will see one of My Staged Clutch designs on EVERY Top Fuel and Pro Drag Bike there. Now the point of all this is: Some of the responces from various folks to what I have Been trying to do is very negitive. "It can't be done cheaply or I would do it" or "There will be no market for it" This kind of attitude from some of the posts is normal, But it really chaps My Butt when I hear this from so called Racers. Almost Every good invention used in the manufacter of Cars has come from racers. Why? You ask Because Racers DON'T give up. I see a need for steel fenders for the 914 AND I am doing something about it. If I succeed everyone benefits. Do You really think I could Make much money selling Flares for 500.00 a pop. Not really. I wouldn't even be trying if it wasn't for My love of the 914. I have wanted one since 1970 when I first laid eyes on one. Now I have one. Instead of saying it can't be done. Think about it like this. What if this Idiot succeeds. I might have to buy a set from him. I will point out that I have NEVER failed to build what I set out to build in My Life. So it might not be a good idea to bet against a racer. Will I fail this time, Maybe But look at it this way It won't cost YOU a dime. I asked for some help in profiling a set of flares so that I could TRY and build them. So Far one person has offered to help. And I really appreciate it. Thanks for listening to My ramblings

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I do tend to get a bit over-pessimistic, but I have seen several people wind up either losing their shirt, or barely break even, on small runs of specialty items. A business, in the end, is about making money--the ones that make money stay around, while the ones that break even or lose money go away.

An individual can do more in many cases for sheer love of the sport. Or the marque. Or the challenge. This opens up a whole lot more opportunities to a passionate creative individual than for a company. I will never again bet against a racer/tinkerer/creative individual. (Anyone remember, "You can't turbocharge a 914"?? I still do!)

Now please note, that in the above I am not in any way the last word at Pelican. I could easily be wrong about the flares being profitable--I've been wrong before! Or Wayne and Tom could make an Executive Decision to produce these on a break-even basis, as they and Don did with the combo gauge kits.

I don't want to give anyone the impression that it definitely won't happen at Pelican, and I know that it could happen elsewhere. But I do want to inject a dose of reality so that expectations do not get overinflated.

If hand-crafted flares come on the market for $500 a set, I will be very impressed. And very pleased.

--DD

[CHA914]

Malevolentfrog,

it sounds like you have the skill, experience and the determination to make this project work...I have been in the 914 world only a short time, but even in that amount of time I have seen numerous people talk about and do nothing with the 500.00 steel flare idea. I wish I had something that could help you on your quest, but instead I can just give you encouragement and maybe be a buyer when you succeed!

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.

Tony

[mikes914]

Your idea sounds great--and unlike some I am an optimist. You can do it. And when they are complete email me some pics and put a set aside for me. I love these little cars, they are just plain fun. I'm not building a show car. Just something fun for myself.

Good Luck ,
Mike
broadaway@lvcm.com

[David McLaughlin]

Then we found another source for them. A lot of people were very excited, and a lot of interest was expressed. So we listed them again for the prices you see--and I'm not sure we've even sold one set...

As soon as I get my bonus check, I'll be ordering the flairs from Pelican. I really want steel and I prefer to deal with the good folks at Pelican. I want my car to look as factory as possable while still being a custom project. No mater how nice the "project" flairs look, the factory units are more desirable.

Just my $.02

[dwillouby@aol.com]

I know where Mr. Frog is coming from. I also have been involved with motorcycle dragracing for over 20 years. I know the " It cant be done" statement all too well. To be a racer is to not be afraid of trying. For if you dont try the race is already lost. A fine example are Harley Davidson dragbikes. A few years ago they were slugs. Now they are almost as quick as the four cyl. bikes. That says alot about the builders getting that kind of power from only two cyls. When you get the flairs ready I may have to cut up my car for a set also.

[rich]

I felt I needed to toss out an other comment on this topic. There is no reason Malevolentfrog can't produce a set of correct flares just as easy as he can produce a generic set. Generic does not translate in to cheaper here. The work is in the tooling. And with a CNC at your disposal there just not an issue. The issue is do it once (or as few times as possible) and cut interpited factory correct flares to shape. Even the factory flares veried from car to car due to installation methods, techic and the installers ability. I installed glas flares on my car. they were a joke. Warped, full of voids, and the right side and left sides veried tremendously from the size of the opening, to the width per flare. I spent an extra week correcting the fit and building up the glas so the car looks correct side to side. I guess what I'm getting at is there is no "914 GT correct", steel flares. I think if Malevolentfrog gets good patterns off a set of installed flares, he will product a very acceptable part. the installer would be Able to install, modify, and reshape as his/her needs dictate. The trick is to do low production stretch dies as mentioned and keep the cost low.

[Malevolentfrog]

Rich what You said is the most intelligent thing I have read in here. I know that most of the readers in here have very little experiance with shaping sheet metal. I on the other hand have a lot. I haven't even disscussed some methods of forming sheet metal. Such as Hydraulic, Picture this if You built a form out of foam and then cast a mold of it from high psi concrete, sandwich a piece of steel between the concrete mold and a steel backing plate. With a pressure port in the middle. Use a O-ring to seal it. build a reusable framework to hold it all together. All you would need is about 500psi ( A Small pressure washer would do) You would have a way to build 3d parts very cheaply. Won't work You say. It's used everyday by Car and motorcycle manufacters in the States and Japan. How do You think the design departments in these factorys build prototypes. Do You think they go to the diemakers and say would You build us a million dollars worth of Molds so We can try out a new idea. For a Car thats got a 10% chance of making it into production!! A way thats used in the ship building industry Explosive forming. Don't belive that either. Electric Boat in Groaton. Builds Submarines for the U.S. Navy. They use a Huge concrete form and Explosives to form the Noses of submarines out of HR plate 1 1/2 inches thick! Now don't get Me wrong I probly won't resort to Explosives to build Flares for a 914. But Ya never know! I mentioned this to prove to some of the naysayers out there that there is many options to try. All it takes is original thinking and a little effort. I know many other ways to form sheet metal that I am not even going into here. I will repeat something that I said before. I am really disapointed in the racers out there in 914 land. If the majority of 914 racers feel like some of the things I have heard in here. Then maybe I should take up racing 914's. It sounds like some of Ya could be learning from behind Me. Just kidding. I have no interest in racing 914's. Thanks

[jabez]

LET ME KNOW WHEN YOU'RE DONE, I'LL GET A SET FROM YOU.

gs

[kena]

Good attitude Mr.Frog!! Personally I don't particularly care for the look of the factory flares. Just build me a nice flowing set that look good on the car; front and rear.
PS: I heard that metal spinning is used to make Woks. They have a nice shape/curve to them. Just thinking outside the box for you.
Don't give up.

[mike mueller]

Kena,
metal flares that do not look like GT flares are available,
CFR Welding (do a search for Tangerine Racing) makes them.

The best looking flares I've every seen on a 914 looked more like 944 fenders than the GT flares. The car had a "coke" bottle look to it. He has 8" wide rims all the way around. I had planned on copying his flares, but decided to do this instead:


If steel GT flares where availible for $500, I think I would have gone that route instead since I could have really stuffed some big rubber under the fenders.

Hey Mal........
I don't see a single post here that says these GT flares cannot be done without a 40 ton press........it's just that unless you have these made by grunts making 5 bucks an hour, it does not make sense for a retailer such as Pelican to have GT flares done by hand the old fashioned way.

Nothing wrong with using bucks and hammers, Shelby sold a lot of Cobras all built that way. Keep us posted, and if you do go into production, I'm sure you'll be able to sell 'em as fast as you can bang them out.

[Malevolentfrog]

Mike I allready proved to Myself at least that I can build a decent flare using old fashioned methods. (Beating them out on a buck and then using a English wheel on them) The problem with that is it takes so long. Doing it that way I would have to charge 2,000.00 a set for them. Just to cover My shop time. And nobody would go for that. I am currently going with the Strech method where You start with a sheet thats about 20% thicker than You want the finished flare to be. And You use pre annealed steel. You then pull it over a die. Then trim the finished piece and smooth it up a little and You are done. I am currently working on a frame work that would allow Me to do this. This would allow Me to produce them very fast. Cutting down the expense of it. Lets face it, it is not the cost of the raw materials I have it figured out that the material for one fender flare would cost about 3.00 It is the time involved. I got a little P.O. at the negitive attitude I was hearing in here. "It can't be done for less that 125,000.00" Some of it coming from racers. I know that if You try it You just might succeed. What I heard was I was going to do that or it's to expensive. Well I have to at least try. If I fail then everyone can point their fingers at Me and laugh. But even the ones that find it hard to belive, will have to admidt that I tried. This will be My last Post on this subject untill I either succeed or fail. But I WILL let everyone know how it all turned out. Thanks

[356&914&912E]

William

Here is a low res pic of the LR flare (P/N#914-503-907-00).

Max length is 40". Max height is 18".

Opening max length is 29" and max height is 10".

Flare extends out max 4.25" at opening arch.

I'll send higher res pics from my hotmail account.

Ron

[larrym]

i have an m-471 german car with REAL factory flares: come to my place and measure & mold all you want; located 50 miles fron Sac'to Ca, ANY weekend ph 530-889-8268

I also have a set of 4 fg copies by unknown maker that duplicate the real german steel flares.. open to offers

[Malevolentfrog]

I am sorry but I have had to put this project aside for a short period of time. We got hit with a severe Ice storm in Northern Oklahoma. And have been with out power for the last two days. The power company has said that it will be a week yet before power is restored. I have trees down everywhere and I am in the process of cutting them up now. They just restored the phone lines today. And I am using My Powerbook to post this. I will inform everyone that's interested when I can get back to the Flares project. Thanks

[JRust]

I think your idea is great as I've said in a previous post. I just noticed your comment about if it does'nt work out that people can laugh then. I disagree if you set your mind to it & gave it your best. I for 1 applaud your effort! All of those who sat on their collective rears & put down the idea will be the first to jump on the bandwagon if you succeed. Don't listen to the naysayers! Keep up the good work! Hope the power outage did'nt mess your life up to bad. I'll be looking for your I did it post!

[DDS]

One thing that nobody has mentioned in this cost of factory flares discussion is profit margins. The OEM units go from the elf in the Black forest, to Porsche, to Porsche North America, probably to a dealer, then to PP or whoever. That's a compounding 20 points per transaction at the very least. You can bet Porsche is marking it up lots more than that. (REad the issue of Panorama where they boast about their profitability at the PCA banquet...) Porsche is probably paying $100 for four. There's no reason to assume that it couldn't be done for $500, as Malfrog and others suggest.
In the past, poor access to information (by customers) killed small enterprises serving far-flung niche markets, so a network like that was a necessary evil. The internet is a boon to cottage industries like what I hope Frog starts.
Like Rich I bought 'glass flares and they were awful. In the end they'll be fine, and I'd do 'glass again, but only because I refuse to pay for a "pedigree" in a stamped steel fender.
Go Frog!

[farleyd]

Hi to all, as you probably know, i am presently crafting my own set of steel GT flares, with the only help of hammer, dollies and the like. About to complete my first side. Remember, i am not in any way a bodyshopper, rather a teaching/graphic designer. So if i can, you can. With a little help. He also showed me OEM paper templates to dye the metal sheet!!!! Will try to get a hold of them, and pass them on.

See the prototype on this following link:.

http://www.pelicanparts.com/cgi-bin/vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4383

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I also sent one of my fiberglass flares to a knowledgeable bodyshop, the kinda experienced. He tried to fabricate one with English wheel, etc, he did, but the flare is a 3-pieces one. And welding is required to fit the 3 parts together. Not very convenient but the shape was there. Will post a picture.

Being both not satisfied with the results, he will attemp to mold/press one. As you know, this is a BIG job. Will keep you posted.

If you noticed, more than 1800 people read this topic. Theres interest for sure.

See my car :

www.farleydw.com/914.html

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Hopefully youll see the results at the next NECR (North East Coast Ramble) which would be held in Quebec, in July. I am plannning a web site on this.