914 GT Flares Project...

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Ok, I came up with an idea that might just fly. If you look at the GT flares, you will find that they all look similar, but not the same. Suppose that someone designed and made a steel flare that would be the same on all four corners and look very much like the original GT flares. Do you think that's possible?

-Wayne

Jim Smolka · 02:57 AM

Wayne,

After working in the BMW body shop, I learned how this a lot of details on body part stamping. The trick is to come up w/a set of dies. There are a couple of companies that would be glad to do the work. The key element is volume. If we could get an order for oh lets say 500 sets of flares, the cost would be reasonable.

Who wants to purchase 500 sets? They would sell in time and ideally less than $500 a set. So lets see 500x500=250,000

Could 4 dies be made and 2000 parts stamped for around $125,000? I think so, but I would have to check with the different manufacturers.

My assumption is that it only takes one set of dies to produce one fender flair.

FWIW, when they make body sides like the BMW X5, many different dies are in a line each weighing approximately 50 tons. Flat steel comes off a roll and then each piece is cut to size. That piece of sheet metal is automatically past through about 10 dies and pressed each time till a body side outer (BSO) is finally formed. The stamping process produces about 1 BSO every 5 seconds. The BSO are then shipped to BMW where they are placed onto a fixture as other pieces are installed. Robots spot-weld all the pieces together. It is absolutely amazing to watch 150 robots dance around and put these cars together. What is even more amazing was I was the guy programming these things!

HarveyH · 01-24-2002, 07:51 AM

Not sure, but I think you're underestimating the work involved in making the dies. Not that I've done it myself, but my father was a tool and die maker at a major body panel supplier. He was pre CNC machining, and then it was a very highly skilled trade, and it took a lot of hours to make a major body panel die. Several days just stoning it down during the final polishing. With CNC, things are a lot faster in roughing out and polishing the dies, but you still have to get the original numbers to feed into the CNC. Weather this comes from CAD-CAM drawings, or from digitizing a model with a pantograph system, a lot of hours go into the preparation for cutting. When I worked at GE Aerospace, we made military communications satelites, never more than 12-15 vehicles, each one of them somewhat different. Almost all of our machining was done CNC (contractual requirements) and it usually took as much or more time getting the digitization done as it would have taken for a skilled machinist to make the part from a drawing. But as my father said,

there aren't that many skilled machinists around... As a note on how skilled tool and die men used to be, my father could handle an object and tell you its dimensions, usually within about 0.010".

Not that I wouldn't like to have a set of steel flares at a reasonable price.

Harvey Hoover

Malevolentfrog · 01-24-2002, 12:35 PM

I have mentioned in previous Posts I fabricate sheet Metal for a living. I have found that using old fashion methods, Such as a Yoder or Engish wheel work and You can get increadable results. With a lot of work. If I was to try and mass produce GT flares in My shop I would have to have a set of flares to profile. I would then build a set of dies by layering Plywood. And with many hours of sanding with a belt sander I would have some roughing Dies. By placing the sheet metal over the dies and then roughing them in on the wood dies. I would then put them into My Yoder and finish them out. Possibly I would have to run them through the english wheel after to smooth them up. They would not be perfect after this. But they would be close enough that it would take a expert to tell the differnce. I figure with the dies made it would take about 6 to 8 hours to produce a set of flares. That would put the price range in the 600.00 dollar range for Me. I would be interested in trying to produce some flares if someone had a set they could loan Me for profiling. No damage would be done to them. Or know where I could obtain blueprints of a set? So here it is I would make the attempt I just need alittle help. One other thing that comes readily to mind is the leagalitys of building them. Does anyone Know about that? Would Porsche allow it. Let Me know what Ya think. ironponyfab@mindspring.com

prattrc · prattrc's Garage

I think just about everyone here would be interested in seeing how this turns out. Please keep us informed!!!

Malevolentfrog · 01-24-2002, 01:03 PM

I guess what I need is a set of flares to Profile. Does anyone have a set that hasn't been put on a Car that I could profile. It would not damage them in the least. And they would be sent back as soon as I was done profiling them. Let Me know.

Malevolentfrog · 01-24-2002, 02:44 PM

Sorry but I just reread Your Post again. The only problem with trying to make a Uniflare as You mentioned is they may look very close but they are not. You could posibly get by with 2 molds one for the front and one for the rear. There is just to much differnce between front and rear. the fronts arn't as wide and Slightly smaller of course the first Bushwacker Fender flares that come out in Polycarbanate had to be trimed to fit. And as these would be steel and be required to be welded in. What would a little triming be. I will look at My 914 and see if it is feasable. I am worked up about this and I have already started to build a mold for a back flare. To try and see how long it would take to produce a flare. When I get it done I will post a picture of it, If I can figure out what I am doing wrong when it comes to posting picts here. I really could use some help in that I really need some better Picts of GT flares and maybe some measurements, Wheel opening sizes and radius's. So if there is anyone out there willing to help send Me any info your can to: ironponyfab@mindspring.com Thanks

Malevolentfrog · 01-25-2002, 08:30 AM

Working on the mold should have it done today. Still trying to figure out why I can't post Picts on this web site. Anyone care to Help? I am going to try to make a uniflare. ( one fits both sides) What Ive come up with since I use a wooden plug to do the rough forming. I have made detachable bottom pieces so that I can switch from one side to the other. As the bottom ends are differnt lenghts front to back. I will let You know how it works. Thanks

Malevolentfrog · 01-26-2002, 08:48 AM

I have one mold done for a right rear. I will try it out today before. I build more molds. Wayne I found way to many differnces between sides to build a uniflare. It could probly be done but the finished product would depend heavily upon having a highly skilled bodyman install the parts. And the idea I am proceeding under is to try and make them very simple to install. I will post futher progress as I go. Thanks

Malevolentfrog · 01-27-2002, 10:10 AM

I have produced 1 flare. It is very time consuming to build a flare this way. I probly could trim the time down by building more. But I would never get the time down to where it would be cost effective. So I am going to try to use a method known as Stretch forming. Using My plywood form. I will let You know how it progresses.

Otto · 01-27-2002, 12:45 PM

Wayne, automolible atlanta was going to do this, but they want to get 100 pre-orders before they do it. You know that I have the capabilities to do this, and it will be right if I decide to do this, so everybody out there give me some input, and I might decide to do this. OTTO

Malevolentfrog · 01-27-2002, 03:08 PM

Otto I didn't mean to step on anyones toes. But I too have the abillity to fabricate fender flares in My shop too. I have allready invested time and effort into building molds to produce flares. I was not aware that You were in the process of building GT flares in Your shop. Had I known I probly wouldn't have started to do what I have. But I see a need for resonably priced GT flares out there. If You would be so kind as to tell Me Your intentions I will be open to disscusion about it. I might add that I have not recived a penny from anyone to do this. I am doing this on My own.

Wayne 962 · Wayne 962's Garage

Okay, let's settle some myths here:

- To replicate the flares exatly, you would need 4 dies that would cost anywhere from $15,000 to $25,000 EACH. This high cost is why no one (including George, Otto, and myself) have done this.

- Secondly, the market is too small to support this, otherwise George would have gotten his 100 orders right away, and we wouldn't be having this conversation.

I have looked at all four flares, and they are all similar in style and shape. It would be possible to create a single flare that could fit on all four corners. Would it look 100% stock? Probably not. Would people prefer this over the fiberglass ones? Well that's the answer that I'm looking for.

The only way to make this feasible and keep the cost down, considering the size of the market, would be to make a single flare for all four corners...

-Wayne

P.S. I don't have $125,000 lying around, and my ROI on the flares would be very bad even if I did...

rich · rich's Garage

I like the stretch form idea. It may work with plywood for a couple of flares, but I can't see it lasting very long. I have a freind that does wheel pants for some kind of a pedel car. His stretch form is very simple but made out of stacked steel plate. I've often thought about using the stretch form idea myself for the flares. This is a low cost way of producing a limited number of parts. I don't think anyone will ever make a bunch of cash repopping flares. But sooner or later someone will do it for the sake of their interest in 914's.

Good luck

maf 914 · 01-28-2002, 04:41 AM

I have talked to Automobile Atlanta some time ago, about a year after they first began their advertisement for flares, and they indicated they had the required 100 orders. In fact, I think they claimed to have significantly more than 100 requests. The delay was supposedly on the manufacturing end. I called sometime later and they had still not made any progress, again citing manufacturing delays. I haven't called again.

Mike

SummerSledSix · 01-28-2002, 05:34 AM

Guys,
Have been following this thread with interest. I seem to remember having read an article (awhile back) about some kind of adaptable body forming system that the car companies were working on so they could reduce the cost of the molds/dies thing. Might have been Chrysler. Any of you guys seen or heard of anything like this, ie something that could crank out low volume parts at a price somewhere between handwork and punch press?

And by the way, if AA can't get it together to fill orders reliably, how could we expect them to actually *manufacture* parts?

01-28-2002, 06:00 AM

Wayne,

Why does PP advertise them if you don't have them in stock?

http://www.pelicanparts.com/catalog/shopcart/9144/por_9144_exteri_main.htm

Do you have them but they are so expensive no one will buy them or what?

Just curious,
ShawnO

Malevolentfrog · 01-28-2002, 07:34 AM

I have read these posts in here with great interest Myself. Well its true that plywood forms don't last long they don't have to. I layered plywood to form the base. I then put the Plywood into My CNC milling machine. To cut it to shape. I can reproduce these forms very cheap. If there was sufficent demand for the flares I would simply put a chunk of steel into the Milling machine and see what turned out. I used wood because it is cheap and will work for a few times to test the idea. As for the adaptable mold system. It is called a Modular Mold. By building a base mold that is in the shape of the one thing that is constant on the parts being fabricated. And building plug-ins that allow You to change certain aspects of the mold. For instance the lower sections of the flares You need only one mold to produce all 4 flares. This is what I am proceeding under ultimatly have one mold out of steel with plug-ins to produce all 4 Flares. I estimate that I am about 30 days from producing a Flare kit that would sell for around 500.00. Be simple to install and look right. And be made out of steel so they can be welded on. Would that interest anyone out there? Thanks

prattrc · prattrc's Garage

$500, steel, looks right? I think that may be the holy grail of the 914 world, next to a resonably priced 6 conversion.

Jim Smolka · 01-28-2002, 09:38 AM

Hmmm...

Anyone know some folks @ the factory. Maybe we could buy the dies from them.

Also, thinging about Wayne's idea of a 1 universal flair. I am not sure how it would work. The rear flair is longer than the front and the verticle section is larger. I think that a universal flare might look OK, but some folks might not the 'non-stock' look.