Setting timing in a 914-6

[jay castriotta]

Does anyone out there have any suggestions how to go about doing distributor work in a 914-6? My question is more along the lines of how do you adjust the points or set the timing when you can't see a whole lot. I would like to avoid installing a fire wall hatch or having to pull the motor. The car is a conversion with a 2.7. Any preference for breakerless systems? Thanks!

[Jim Smolka]

Ouch, I feel your pain.

I had to drop the motor when I needed to repair the alternator.
I am not sure if there is a good way, it could be possible to adj time etc, but not easy...

[David McLaughlin]

You should ask that question on the Rennlist email list. I'm sure you'd get at least 5 different options. Just don't make my mistake and mention the firewall hole, you will get flamed.

When you figure it out, let me know.

[J P Stein]

I use a Pertronics unit instead of points.
Been workin' fine for bout 3 years. I keep waitin' for it to puke so's I can put a good one in it's place.

I also have a hole in my firewall. I wouldn't do that to an original sixer, but on a conversion rat bastard.......no one cares but the chicken littles. Dunno iff'n I can get an alternator out thru it, but if it came down to it, I'd make the hole bigger.

[gruntie]

Remove the distributor.

Remove the cap first and carefully mark the position of the rotor arm so you can reinstall it in the same position. You can only "mark" it by feel, but on reinstallation if you are only one tooth out on the drive gear it will give quite a big and obvious angle at the rotor arm.
Then remove the distributor carefully without turning it so that you can get a visual on the angle of the rotor arm as you do so, it all helps. Then do what you have to do & then reinstall the distributor, having NOT rotated the engine in the meantime. As long as you reinsert it carefully with the rotor arm at the same position as when it came out, it will go back in the correct place. The timing will be close enough for the engine to run, so u can then set it properly with a strobe on the flywheel.

It all sounds rather daunting, but it's actually straightforward and very easy with a bit of practice.

A breakerless system though is an even better method. If anyone can recommend the best thing to use with an MSD 6AL I'd love to know.

[SummerSledSix]

Another good reason to use a DME motor for conversions...

Just a related suggestion, though - PP sells a little cradle gizmo that hooks up to your floor jack and makes engine drops a breeze. I made my own after spotting Porsche's version in a local shop. With that gizmo, a pair of jack stands, and some judicious notching of the engine tin, I can get my engine / tranny out in 2 hours or less. That cradle gizmo is a real labor (and back pain) saver...

[red-beard]

Pictures?

James

[SummerSledSix]

There is a store-bought engine cradle from PP (last picture), which I discovered via the 911 board after I invented my own (necessity is a mother)...

In 914 land however, the engine is not the last thing in the line, so, here is my creation, made from some Home Depot steel. Wanted to hold the tranny as well and drop the whole combo since I thought it was easier, CV grease notwithstanding.

The pix don't show it well, there are little "mini-cradles" that cradle the engine-oil bumps on the bottom of the case to keep the engine from sliding longitudinally. I located these to ensure the engine / tranny center of gravity is directly above the jack tongue.

That little wad of 4x4 in the picture cocks the engine/tranny to match the rake of the car which is jacked only at the rear. This gets the heiny high enough to get the engine in/out (have to remove the valance, tho).

I added an outrigger to steady the heads, and an outrigger on the floor jack as an anti-tip guard. As long as you make no sudden control inputs to the jack (ie just like DE), the engine stays pretty stable, and you can drag it around the garage floor at will. You still want to be very careful and respectful of 500+ lbs of very top-heavy hardware.

If the engine is going to sit for awhile, I put a block of wood from the underside of the jack tongue to its front axle so's I can unload the jack piston.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Setting the timing: Mirrors are your friend here. You may wind up needing a large-ish one--if so, look around in your local home improvement store for mirrror tiles. (Just endure the smirks of the checkout clerks who think you're gonna put them up in your bedroom....) You can cut one of those down to whatever size you need.

You might need something to hold it in place and make sure the fan doesn't suck it in. Not sure on that--perhaps putty or glue of some kind?

The mirror should both allow you to shine the timing light on the fan pulley indirectly, and also let you see the marks indirectly. That way you don't wind up lying on top of the motor while it runs at 6,000 RPM which is where the timing is set on many 911 engines.

If you have an original six with an original motor (obviously not with a 2.7) there is no good option for a breakerless conversion unless you spend the big bucks and swap over from the Marelli distributor to the Bosch. Nobody that I know of makes a breakerless system that fits in the Marelli.

For any other 914-6, breakerless is a good idea. Having a CDI means that the timing doesn't change much--but it will eventually change, and it's a big enough hassle to set correctly that anything you can do to stop the timing from changing is a good thing. I mean, I hate mucking with the points in a four-cylinder, the Six has got to be murder!!!

--DD

[red-beard]

I gotta make me one of those!

Must wait for electric metal fire torch to come!

Praise be to E-bay!

James

[jtf914]

I admit that distributor work is diffuclt on a -6, having the battery relocated to one of the trunks gives you a whole lot more breathing room in there.

But when setting the timing, why use mirrors to see the pulleys when there is an inspection hole in the transmission casing so you can see the flywheel markings?

Justin

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Are the marks on the flywheel correct for that?

It sounds like you need to make a "door" in the rear piece of engine tin so you can look through the notch in the tranny bellhousing. Not bad, and much less invasive than a hole in the firewall!

I didn't even think of that...

--DD

[farleyd]

OK guys, whats wrong with the idea of making a hole into the firewall?

- - -

I had a fan belt failure on my 6-conversion, and once we got the proper fan belt - which has been a problem in a small NY state towm at 9:30PM on a Thursday night, but i eventually found one! - it took us five minutes to fix the thing.

- - -

Timing and adjusting the dizzy is a breeze. I did it in a parking lot at the last East coast ramble.

- - -
So gentlemen, start your chronos, and lets do some side-to-side comparaisons? How much time would that have taken if there were no access hole?

Beside being respectfull to a sound original six, do we have to deal and suffer a problem that plagued the car form its first days? Means accessing the engine?

Please explain. Thanks and no offense taken.

[jay castriotta]

How about a hatch from one of these places- perhaps welded in to preserve (enhance?) structual rigidity.

http://www.flexmasterusa.com/Products/access/typeTBSM.htm

http://www.buckleyonline.com/products/access.html

[jtf914]

Dave,

I can't take credit for the idea, the hole in the engine tin to see the flywheel was standard on factory sixes. Using the timing light on the flywheel is based on the Porsche service manuals.

I'm not even sure if standard 911 flywheels have the marks on them for setting the timing. If not you could always mark the flywheel by lining up each notch on the pulley and making a mark on the flywheel with reflective paint. Just be sure to use different colors for each marking.

As far as the access hole through the firewall, I'm not opposed to it, I just haven't found a situation where I needed one. I might feel differently when I lose a belt, or have to drop the engine to replace the alternator, but hopefully those situations will be few and far between.

Justin

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

Sabin--
Think about the word for a moment. "Firewall". Break it into two pieces; "fire" "wall". As in, "Wall to protect you from a fire".

I think that's the main objection to cutting a hole in it; unless you can make the "hatch" fireproof, you have just compromised the function of the firewall. Now, if 914s never ever burst into flames the objections would probably be less. Well, maybe not from Kap'n Krusty, but that's why he's got that nickname anyway!!

Myself, I'm not really sold on either view; that they are a Good Thing in a 914-6 or a Bad Thing alltogether... I haven't had to live with one either way.

--DD

[TheAndante]

I know that VW Bus cases, nearly identical in mold except for the location of the dipstick, have a hole in the engine casing itself right at the flywheel. You pull of the little plastic cap and there are the teeth.

Paul

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I didn't know they made six-cylinder Buses! (Note the discussion is about a 914-6, not a four-cylinder car.) I think the original 914-6 flywheels may have markings on the back side for this very reason, though.

--DD

[TheAndante]

Yeah, by the time I got to the bottom of the thread I was reminded of it and compared it to a 4. Wait, maybe it really was a 6 in that Bus.

Paul

[mskala]

My way also is to take the whole distributor out.
It is very easy, leave all the wires on the cap and
leave the cap in there.

One non-obvious thing: when you check and note
your distributor rotor position (so you can get the
thing back in the right tooth) you should also know
that the mounting plate hole (held by 13mm nut)
has slop in it, you can change by a couple degrees.
Set the timing making sure the body is pushed one
side or the other.

Mark S.
'70 914-6

P.S. We don't have 6-cylinder 914's because they're
easy and quick to work on, so the hole in the firewall
argument for fan belts and dists doesn't work for me.
Be a man, do it blind or with mirrors or put it in a 911.