|
|
|
|
| Author |
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
Cant get this one to start, either!
Just bought an 87 944 of a friends Dad. It had been parked for around 7 years because at the time he thought the water pump was going out on it and didnt have the money to fix it. It was running when he parked it.
I have flushed the tank and the lines out and put a new fuel filter on. The problem is, when you turn the key on, the pump does not come on. My friend had already bought a new DME relay for it so I put that on and it still wont start. I have checked the feed to the 'fuel pump side' of the DME relay for voltage and there is 0 volts. I believe this feed comes from the computer (according to the wiring diag off the tech CD). If I pull the cover off the DME relay and physically push the contacts together, then the fuel pump comes on. (The other relay in the DME energizes OK). If I spray brake cleaner into the intake it will start and run. I have also checked the two positive feeds going into the computer as well as the grounds - they are all fine. It seems to me that either the computer has gone hay-wire, or there is a sensor somewhere telling the computer to not turn on the pump and fire the injectors. Can anyone please suggest something else to try? Thank You. Brett. |
||
05-24-2004, 01:03 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,327
|
brake cleaner is highly corrosive, how's about some carburetor cleaner instead.
__________________
87 951, K27/6, Almond Beige, 17" Turbotwist 87 944S, alpine white, 5sp died a violent death 84 944, silver/brown, auto, gone but not forgotten "may the force be with you" |
||
|
05-24-2004, 02:12 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
The fuel pump does not come on when the key is turned on.
I'll explain in a bit how it does work but first: You have to change the timing and balance belts before you go any further. These most likely are ready to break the first time you rev it up. When the timing belt breaks you have to rebuild the head as the valves and the pistons want to occupy the same space. Now about the DME system: Turning the key on you should have 12 volts at the coil and at the pins to the injectors. If you don't have 12 volts to the coil then the ignition switch is bad. If you have 12 volts to the coil but not the injectors the DME/fuel pump relay is bad. It's first set of contacts close with the ignition switch sending current to the injectors and the DME brain. If you have 12 volts to the coil and the injectors then the first set of contacts in the DME relay are good. Now when you crank the car the same voltage that is sent to the starter solenoid is also sent to the DME brain. The DME closes the second set of contacts in the DME relay to run the fuel pump. The fuel pump will continue running for a half second after you stop cranking. You can jump the terminals on the plug base for the DME relay to run the fuel pump directly. Terminal 30 (battery) to terminal 87b (fuel pump). I prefer to us terminal 86 (this is switched through the ingition) to terminal 87b. You may have to clean the injectors too. Seven years is a long time for a car to sit.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! Last edited by SoCal Driver; 05-24-2004 at 03:05 PM.. |
||
|
05-24-2004, 03:02 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
Hugh,
You have been more help in 15 lines of writing than everyone put together that I have spoken to in the last week - Thank you. I went and checked the injectors and dizzy for power - 12 volts at both! I have the battery on charge at the moment - after I will have the Misses crank it while I listen for the fuel pump - if it is pumping, then I guess the injectors are blocked - what do you think? Regards, Brett. p.s. I got a new water pump and both belts and rollers with the car - if it runs I am going to change them all out before driving it!
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 04:59 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,990
|
Damn your brain is getting big Hugh!
Just out of curiosity, have you opened up the belt covers to see if they are intact? With belts that have set for that long you could have a cam or crank gear that is spinning on a toothless portion of the belt.......... ....ask me how I know......
__________________
83 944 white w/Boxster wheels Planned mods- custom leather interior, 968 antenna, soundsystem, 968 style rockers, clear sidemarkers
|
||
|
05-24-2004, 05:13 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
It runs on brake cleaner - so I would say they are stilll there - but I am still going to change them once it runs on gas. I have a friend coming over on the weekend to help me - he has already chaged two 944's before and has all the Mickey Mouse tools needed to do the job.
I do appreciate all the advice, though!
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 05:34 PM
|
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
Just cranked the beast and the fuel pump is coming on - so I guess I will check the fuel pressure and the injectors and go from there..!!
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 05:57 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
About the spark: Take a spare spark plug, pull the wire off of #1, stick the plug in it and lay it on the intake. Crank the car and see if you have spark. If you don't have spark then start thinking coil to dist wire. The ends on these overbuilt wires tend to corrode inside the weather boots and pull loose.
If you have spark then the injectors might be all crudded up. Pull the fuel rail and sit it on some rags. Have someone crank the car while you watch the injectors. Put the plug back on #1 spark plug first. You can back flush the injectors with a bit of charcoal lighter fluid, a two foot piece of hose and shop air. Pull the plastic hat off of the injector, clamp the hose to that end, fill the hose with solvent and apply shop air. This will force the spintle open and the solvent will take what ever crud is in the filter screens on the inlet side and blow in across the garage. If there is no spark and no injectors then the reference sensor is either bad (broken connectors) or out of adjustment or the connector just needs to be cleaned.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 07:31 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
P.S. You had better change the belts. A new out of adjustment belt is far better than an old belt that has been sitting in one possiton for 7 years!
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 07:32 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
Mickey Mouse tools???
Not a good attitude to approach working on these cars.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 07:33 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
Quote:
How do you know?
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 07:35 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
No - when I say Mickey Mouse tools, I am referring to the tool for holding the gears and the tesioner tool. I take all my Mechanic work very serious - I have just over a thousand hours on a frame off resto on my 60 Corvette Fuellie (have paint and assembly left), I also have a 66 Corvette Roadster 427 4 spd that has a COPO motor in it (with papers) and 3 kids to take care of (and guns, too) - No messing around here.
I really appreciate the time y'all have taken to help this "Porsche Newbie" out on this one - I was fast approaching the last resort of taking it to the Porsche dealer for a diagnostic "But-raping", but the info that you guys have shared with me this afternoon I think has saved me that trip. Thanks. p.s. when this bit is fixed, I am sure I will have more questions for y'all - keep the good advice coming..!!
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-24-2004, 08:47 PM
|
|
|
|
Registered
|
The idea of using a pin spanner is older than six sided nuts. An adjustable pin spanner is used on industrial grinding wheels and some buffers. About $8 at the discount tool stores.
It's important to get the balance belt pulleys back on correctly. They have two key ways. I've posted a graphic of this several times so search the board. If you don't get the balance belt aligned the vibrations have been known to fracture the fuel lines. Even after the gluteus maximums gross intrusion the P dealers get things wrong on the 944 "bastard child".
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-25-2004, 06:56 AM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
about how long should it take to change out the belts and water pump?
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-25-2004, 07:06 AM
|
|
|
Registered
|
Four to six hours -- IF you have done this before.
Includes a reseal. Be sure to torque the crank bolt back to 150 ft. lbs or your oil pump will not oil pump.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
05-25-2004, 08:14 AM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,990
|
"ask me how I know"
Thats how I joined the "order of the bent valve". I picked up a car with old belts that had been sitting. Drove and worked on it for about 2-3 month. As the heat cycles started the bad rubber started to worsen. As I was driving the car to park it for the last time for belt job it sheered off the teeth on the cam at idle. If you have never done the job I would give it a couple of days. I say that just because your margin of error is slight. Mess up a seal, don't align the balance shafts just right, accidentally remove oil pump and don't reseal it with locktite 574.....All could have you in there again. (note my signature line) On the plus side, you will know the front of the engine like the back of your hand.
__________________
83 944 white w/Boxster wheels Planned mods- custom leather interior, 968 antenna, soundsystem, 968 style rockers, clear sidemarkers
|
||
|
05-25-2004, 12:17 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
Went up to the O (O'Reilly's - used to work there) and picked up a fuel pump this morning - put it in and after a little cranking she kicked a bit, then after a little more cranking she fired up - I didnt rev it cause I want to get and change those belts out - and she developed quite a water leak so my friends Dad was right to park it when he did - anyway - she idled so smooth for something that sat for that long.
Anyway - have to move the IROC and the Corvette out of the garage so I can put the latest addition to the family in and get to working on her - cant wait to drive it! Will probably have some more questions for y'all later tonight - thanks for all the help so far. Brett.
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
05-25-2004, 03:12 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: St. Petersburg, Florida
Posts: 1,990
|
Congrats!
__________________
83 944 white w/Boxster wheels Planned mods- custom leather interior, 968 antenna, soundsystem, 968 style rockers, clear sidemarkers
|
||
|
05-25-2004, 05:05 PM
|
|
|
Registered
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Posts: 164
|
SHE'S ALIVE....!!!!
Finally drove the 944 for the first time this evening! Since the last post, I changed the water pump, all the front seals (even that ^$%&*$# main oil pump seal), belts, replaced all the hoses, clutch master and slave cylinders, brake master cylinder, flushed out the brake lines, resurfaced all rotors (the most I had to take off was 5 thou on each side - they werent warped at all and I was pretty happy about that), new bearings / seals and pads, and new calipers. The test drive started out around the block a few times and increased from there. Finally, we loaded the kids up in the Tahoe and the Misses followed me down to the gas station for a long awaited drink at the pump! Then she followed me down the interstate for about 10 miles to a friends place, and then an alternate route back to the house. By the time I got it home it was running like a top - smooth idle and just a little hesitation in cruise.
Next will be a set of tires (open to suggestions there both on brand and size (has the cookie cutter wheels)) and a cap, rotor and a set of wires. Thanks for all the help everyone, I really appreciate y'all!
__________________
Brett, Dallas, Texas (Originally from Sydney, Australia) 1986 944, Zermatt Silver / Black Leather 1994 Full size Blazer, Midnight Blue 1989 IROC, Arrest-me-Red 1966 Corvette Roadster 427 4spd, Silver / Black DRIVE THEM LIKE YOU JUST STOLE THEM! |
||
|
06-04-2004, 06:38 PM
|
|
|
Registered
|
Not bad for an Oz transplant! Must be those pointy toed boots!
Pictures??? Don't forget a retension on those belts in about 1500 miles.
__________________
Hugh - So Cal 83 944 Driver Person NOT a 'real' Porsche -- Its Better!!!! When was the last time you changed your timing and balance belts and/or cam chain and tensioner? New Users please add your car's year and model to your signature line! Never break more than you fix! |
||
|
06-04-2004, 06:51 PM
|
|
1983 Porsche 944 2.5 liter
