Timing/Balance System Rebuild -- Possible missing part?

[exitwound]

Apologies if I missed the answer to this in my search of the forums.

I am in the process of rebuliding the timing of a 1986 944 N/A Porsche. Upon receiving this car (via Ebay, you might remember), the entire timing belt and balance belt systems had been disassembled. When we began to reassemble the systems, only the camshaft sprocket and water pump roller were mounted to their proper shafts.

All other tensioners, rollers, and gears were not on their shafts. They were in a bucket and had to be identified on the fly. We have identified the timing belt tensioner roller but there is no shaft (stud) where it should mount in the system to the block. There is a bossing where it looks like a stud should be. We have found a metric stud among the bucket of parts that does fit this hole and does engage the threads inside. However, we are not 100% sure this is the proper part for assemblage. We have checked shop manuals and the Haynes Manual (and *********** explosion.pdf) and Clarks Garage for pictures or explosions to help us determine if this is all good. However, All pictures and descriptions of rebuilding the timing system are drawn on the assumption that the pulleys have not been removed.

We are seeking someone who can help us determine exactly what parts go in this location and in what order. Dimensions of proper nuts and washers would be fabulous. Again, for a 1986 Porsche 944. We are certain that we have the correct gears and rollers in their respective places, leaving this last one as the only one that is unmounted. We just cannot figure out how exactly it mounts without rubbing on the back plastic timing system cover, if indeed the stud we're attempting to use is the right one.

I will post pictures of the area I am referring to when I get home from the garage in case I am not being clear on the area I'm speaking of.

Any help would be great.

[exitwound]

Here are the images I promised. Note: Nothing is tightened or secured at this point. I'm interested in knowing if the stud being shown in the 1st and 2nd photos is the one needed to mount the timing belt tensioner (arrowed). Thanks!

[Slam]

Salud!

Looks to me like you've got the following (clockwise from top left):

Balance shaft sprocket
Crankshaft sprocket
Balance shaft sprocket
Can of WD40 (grin)
Cam belt tensioner stud
Cam belt tensioner
Balance shaft belt idler

The blue arrow does indicate where the stud would go.

I might be wrong about the WD 40...

HTH

[ae1969]

Originally posted by Slam
Salud!

Looks to me like you've got the following (clockwise from top left):

Balance shaft sprocket
Crankshaft sprocket
Balance shaft sprocket
Can of WD40 (grin)
Cam belt tensioner stud
Cam belt tensioner
Balance shaft belt idler

The blue arrow does indicate where the stud would go.

I might be wrong about the WD 40...

HTH

Slam is correct (P.S where are you at in Alberta).


Exit........ order the nuts and washers from the dealer. THe locking nuts are hard to find. AND YOU DONT want the nuts on the tensioners coming loose. from using the wrong nuts.

[exitwound]

Awesome. Thanks guys.

So you're saying that the stud pictured is indeed the one that holds that tensioner in? Someone on ClarksGarage said it looks a little too long to be the correct one. How can I be sure?

[Slam]

"So you're saying that the stud pictured is indeed the one that holds that tensioner in? Someone on ClarksGarage said it looks a little too long to be the correct one. How can I be sure?"

I'd install it, install the tensioner and the tensioner retaining nut (don't forget the washer) , then torque the nut (33ft/lbs). Then make sure the tensioner is free to rotate without binding. It shouldn't - the boss (your parlance) should provide you with enough clearance past the timing cover.

BTW, I'd also check the water pump right about now to make sure there's no play in the pulley bearings. Around here the pumps we usually get are all for turbos and us NA guys have to install a blockoff plate where the stud for the p/s line retainer is. Your pump may be a little dated.

ae1969 - I'm in Wainwright but I lived in Edmonton on and off for about ten years. I should put that in my header stuff, too. BTW - you'd given me some tips on my OPRV troubles a while back and proved right on the nose. I R&R'd the OPRV, cooler element and seals with the right alignment tool and did the crank bolt and the "front of engine service" too. Hey presto! Oil pressure! I used the krikit on the belts and am almost due for the next tensioning. Seems to work okay.

[Zero10]

I'm the one who said the stud was too long
I'm not 100% certain on it, but you said that it didn't thread all the way into the block, so that's what I was going on.

[ae1969]

Originally posted by Slam
"So you're saying that the stud pictured is indeed the one that holds that tensioner in? Someone on ClarksGarage said it looks a little too long to be the correct one. How can I be sure?"

I'd install it, install the tensioner and the tensioner retaining nut (don't forget the washer) , then torque the nut (33ft/lbs). Then make sure the tensioner is free to rotate without binding. It shouldn't - the boss (your parlance) should provide you with enough clearance past the timing cover.

BTW, I'd also check the water pump right about now to make sure there's no play in the pulley bearings. Around here the pumps we usually get are all for turbos and us NA guys have to install a blockoff plate where the stud for the p/s line retainer is. Your pump may be a little dated.

ae1969 - I'm in Wainwright but I lived in Edmonton on and off for about ten years. I should put that in my header stuff, too. BTW - you'd given me some tips on my OPRV troubles a while back and proved right on the nose. I R&R'd the OPRV, cooler element and seals with the right alignment tool and did the crank bolt and the "front of engine service" too. Hey presto! Oil pressure! I used the krikit on the belts and am almost due for the next tensioning. Seems to work okay.

Hey Slam.... IF you are ever in the area..... bring the krikit into town. I have p9201 so I would be curious to compare it with the krikit as well.

Exit : 99% sure that is the right stud.

[exitwound]

Thanks. We managed to get it most of the way in. I think whoever worked on the engine last used a little too much loctite or thread sealer of some sort and it's gunking up the threads. Yay.

Speaking of sealant... The balance shafts require Loctite 638 to mount to the block. At $20 for 10cc's of it, that seems a little steep. Is it necessary or is there another less expensive equivalent that can be used? Can I get either Loctite 638 or an equivalent at a local store instead of ordering online?

Thank you

[Zero10]

Nope, 638 is crap, forget all about it

To seal the balance shaft covers, use Loctite 574 or 518. 518 is MUCH easier to find than 574, and about the same price.
There is some anaerobic flange sealant available at most parts stores, the guys behind the counter tell me it's a replacement for Loctite 574, but I'm kind of afraid to try it.

Here's a pic of the stud, I snapped the pic today, I was wrong, it's the right stud.

[Slam]

Alex - My belts are due for a retension soon and I'd really like to know how accurate the krikit is compared to Porsche Beverly Hills Tool 90210. I'll get in touch after I've done the belts and maybe we can hook up. BTW, chrenan on the 924board.org site is trying to arrange an Edmonton Porsche get-together sometime. That might work.

Zero - is that your 951 block? How's the build going?

Exit - best of luck!

[ae1969]

Originally posted by Slam
Alex - My belts are due for a retension soon and I'd really like to know how accurate the krikit is compared to Porsche Beverly Hills Tool 90210. I'll get in touch after I've done the belts and maybe we can hook up. BTW, chrenan on the 924board.org site is trying to arrange an Edmonton Porsche get-together sometime. That might work.

Zero - is that your 951 block? How's the build going?

Exit - best of luck!

Edmonton get together would be great.............

We can definitely compare the tools. Let me know when you are in town.

[carsonmx114]

i think there is suppose to be a spacer behind your tensioner. if i remember right it's about 8 or 10mm thick. that's why the tensioner is rubber the plastic backing.

[Zero10]

It isn't my 951 block, that one actually has some damage on one of the cylinders, and is sitting in my garage right now.

I just picked up the block the other day, and some N/A pistons, which I will have coated, then use in it, so I can have a 9.6:1 CR turbo motor

I used the 9201 and KR-1 back to back, and got the same reading with both. Did it several times, and readings were virtually identical. Now I use the KR-1, much easier to use. I was using a friend's 9201.

[bryanthompson]

Not to hijack... but when you guys use the krikit, where *exactly* do you get the cam belt reading? For me, there's about 1/2" between the top of the belt and the rear plastic cover, so the krikit doesn't fit in the area between the cam gear and the water pump pulley... Is there a better place?

[bleu951]

You are missing the nut that goes on the stud before the toothed roller goes on.

The stud has two sets of threads. The short end goes into the block, and you need to leave enough exposed to install the nut, roller, and locking nut. This stud has been known to break, so replacing it may be a good idea. Also, rust is very bad for long belt life. Clean those gears thoroughly. The balance shaft gears are the two smaller of the three. The other one goes on the crank. Here is a parts list I have developed over the years. Hope it helps some.
944 8 VALVE FRONT ENGINE SEALS, BELTS & WATER PUMP PARTS LIST

From engine # 43F 06995 (1985) thru 1986 8 valve engines

Camshaft

1 each O-ring 999.701.602.40
1 each Woodruff key (optional) 900.117.045.00
1 each O-ring (onion skin) 944.105.321.00
1 each Spacer 928.105.139.04
1 each Seal 999.113.349.40
1 each Bolt (optional) 999.510.022.08
1 each Toothed roller 944.105.027.04
1 each Stud 944.102.216.01
1 each Nut 944.102.243.00
1 each Smooth roller (for updated pump) 944.105.241.03
1 each Rubber seal 928.105.184.00
1 each Belt 944.105.157.04

Crankshaft

1 each Seal 999.113.331.40
1 each Sleeve (oil pump drive) 944.107.161.02
1 each O-ring 999.707.283.40
1 each Woodruff key (optional) 900.117.036.00

Balance shafts

1 each Seal (upper, cw rotation) 999.113.282.40
1 each Seal (lower, ccw rotation) 999.113.281.40
2 each Spacer 928.105.139.02
2 each O-ring (same as cam) 944.105.321.00
2 each O-ring 999.701.652.40
2 each Woodruff key (optional) N 012.708.2
1 each Tensioner roller 944.102.025.07
1 each Smooth roller 944.102.277.06
1 each Belt 944.102.219.02

Water pump

1 each Water Pump 951.106.021.10
1 each Gasket 944.106.132.04
1 each Block off plate 944.106.313.00
1 each O-ring 999.707.283.40
2 each Bolt 6 x 20mm N .014.704.1
2 each Washer N .011.524.7
1 each Thermostat 944.106.019.00
1 each Support Washer 900.234.160.00
1 each T-stat O-ring 944.106.929.08
1 each Guard rail (for updated pump) 944.105.210.01
2 each Lock nuts (for guard rail) 999.084.092.02

[Slam]

Hey, Bryan,

Check out Bruce Arn's website, Arnworx (I think - help, anyone?). There's a good description there of where to place the krikit. Make sure the cam idler and belt guide are not installed and you'll have plenty of room to get the tool in there.

What I found was that I had to make sure to turn the engine to just the right spot so when the belt deflected while I measured, the teeth on the belt didn't collide (where the guide would be). Does that make sense? I'm deathly ill right now and delirious...

[hardflex]

hey, reviving this thread because i doing this job now and want to be certain I'm getting it right.

Is the procedure here to put nuts on the stud on either side of the tensioner, then tighten the nuts to 33lb, then install the whole unit into the hole indicated by the blue arrow? otherwise, how do you position the pulley away from the plastic cover. The inside nut cannot bottom on the cover, or the pulley will rub... Am I missing something here?

[bleu951]

You install the stud with the short set of threads into the block, and leave ~2" exposed. You may have to do this a couple of times to get the right distance. Torque the shouldered nut before proceeding, this is very important!

Install the eccentric tensioner roller, flat washer and lock nut. The crank pulley has the lip out, and the tensioner lip is in. Check the belt alignment to be sure it is straight from crank to cam.

Belt covers have to go on before the gears are installed.

Some of those parts look rough. Do the toothed rollers turn smoothly but not spin freely? Any significant play?

[hardflex]

what am I torqueing the shouldered nut against?