No Start Problem

Jeeper31 · 02-23-2006, 12:40 PM

No Start Problem
I have been having problems with my starter disengaging from the engine while trying to start the car and was lead to believe it was the grounds. I tightened the grounds in the battery box and on the bell housing. When the ground on the bell housing was loose I started the car for a second and turned it off. I tried again and it cranked for a sec and stopped. I did this again assuming that this is how it should act with the ground loose. I tightened the ground and tried to start the car. It cranked much better, the starter didn't disengage, however it does not start.

What I have checked so far. All fuses are ok. I pulled out spark plug and I am getting spark. I checked the speed/reference sensor with a multimeter and it reads perfectly at 934 ohms. Jumpered fuel pump and it is running. I was about to check the fuel pressure but instead I cracked the valve off the rail turning the nut the wrong way. So.... I have a new fuel rail coming hopefully on Saturday. I ordered a new fuel pressure regulator and a fuel pressure damper. I sent my injectors out to be cleaned and will hopefully have everything back together this weekend.

I am looking for any advice related to what to check or what can be wrong. I haven't driven the car all winter, have new tires and sway bars to install and need the car running.

Any help is appreciated.

Dan

By the way it's a 1987 944S

__________________
Dan
1987 944S (black)
2005 Acura TL Black

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

Rebuild or replace the starter. Check the teeth on the flywheel. These should not be beat up.

Razorback1980 · Razorback1980's Garage

It really sounds to me like you aren't getting the proper current to the starter and other components of the car because the car will not start. This could be caused by a number of connections in various places. The first place that comes to mind is both battery cables and on both ends. Check to make sure they are clean and securely fastened. The connection on the starter solenoid sounds pretty suspicious to me because that controls the starter and other devices on the car pull their power from there as well. Check to make sure the connection is clean and secure. You should also check the voltage there to make sure the battery cable ends are not the problem....you should have 12 volts there even while cranking the car. Sometimes I have seen it have 12 volts while not cranking but it fall to 7 or 8 when cranking. If the battery cable is only passing 8 or 9 then everything on the car is underpowered and may not work properly including such devices as the fuel injectors. Maybe why the car doesn't start. Also remember to check the battery cable on the ground side of the battery. Take both ends off and clean them, put the noncorrosive spray on them and resecure them. I'm not real sure how to test the negative battery cable other than take a jumper cable and connect to the ground post and then attach the other end to the motor. Maybe someone knows of a better test than that. I am guessing it's going to be a corroded electrical connection or bad battery cables.

Relay....Sorry SoCal and thanks for your kind correction..I meant solenoid. Guess I shouldn't be writing these while drinking beer at Hooters ....I mean drinking coffee at Starbucks. A lot of distractions can make a man write the wrong words!

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

Starter relay????

Jeeper31 · 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoCal Driver
Rebuild or replace the starter. Check the teeth on the flywheel. These should not be beat up.

The starter is actually a rebuilt one. I was having the problem and the last starter died so I bought a remanufactured one. Was still having the problem with it disengaging so brought it back and they replaced the solenoid.

Where is the starte relay?

As far as the spark I think it was blue but not sure. I just noticed it was sparking and that's it. Can i crank the engine and check for spark without the fuel rail in or is this dangerous? What color spark do I want?

Since i tightened the grounds the starter has not disengaged and the engine is cranking strong with no start. Can it still be the starter relay?

I put screwdriver to injectors and thought I heard clicking but not 100% sure. If they are not opening what would cause that?

I also had the battery and charging system checked at autozone and they said it is fine.

Thanks

Razorback1980 · Razorback1980's Garage

Dan, sorry for the confusion, I meant solenoid. Sometimes that happens when I talk as well...I open my mouth and stupid stuff just falls out before I have a chance to catch it!

Blue is the color spark you strive for but anything other than yellow should be okay. If the engine is cranking strong, the starter solenoid should be doing it's job. It could still be wires attached at the starter solenoid connection. Are you sure you got them all back on okay? I don't think I would check for a spark if there is any open fuel around to ignite. If you are getting proper ignition, then it's time to check fuel and/or timing. You may try putting a small amount of gas into the intake through the breather box and see if it tries to run. If it does then you know the problem is with the fuel. If not...then since you know you have ignition and you know you have fuel, then it's down to timing.

Jeeper31 · 02-24-2006, 04:15 AM

Would timing be a big problem ? How does that go bad? It was running fine until i messed with the grounds.

Thanks

Razorback1980 · Razorback1980's Garage

Unless the ground issue is keeping the computer or reference sensor from working properly, it probably won't be a problem. But it takes four things to make an engine run...fuel, ignition, timing and compression. Generally speaking, the first two are almost always the problem and in your case I don't think compression is an issue so that only leaves timing if you know for sure you have the first two. Timing involves many parts though as does all the other categories so try not to think of it as just keeping the camshaft in sync with the crank. It's also about delivering the spark at just the right time and on these cars that does involve some electrical parts which are affected by ground wires and current. So Cal is one of the best on here that can help with the diagnostics of hows, whens and whys of ingnition delivery so I hope he jumps in here and helps with that part. My car has never given me any problems in this area so I have never had a need to learn how it works yet. Let's get the fuel rail back together and take it from there.

Jeeper31 · 02-24-2006, 06:52 AM

Me too. Has has helped me out a lot with other problems I have had.

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

Rounding up; the engine will crank but not run. The cranking speed is the same as when the car would run; that is it's not noticeably faster.

Test these points:

With the key on check for voltage at the coil and at the ignition module.

Pull on of the injector plugs off and check it for voltage. One side will be at the battery voltage the other a bit lower because it's going through the other three injectors.

No voltage at the coil/module is ignition switch problems.

Voltage at the coil but not at the injectors is a DME relay problem.

You state there is spark. Is this at the spark plug connector? Pull of the first spark plug connector, insert a spare spark plug, lay it on the intake manifold to ground the plug and crank the car. Note that the ignition modules have been known to fail. Rarely does the coil fail.

The 'S' models have a single sensor that does both the reference (top dead center on #1) and the speed or rpm reading for the DME. If you have spark then this sensor is working -- adjusted correctly and connected.

As to the grounds on the 'S' models; there have been reports that when the engine to chassis grounds are loose the ground path is through the DME when cranking. This will damage the DME.

Fuel delivery/pressure. Check the fuse for the fuel pump. If the fuse is good make a jumper with a flat "pin" that will go into one of the fuse slots and an aligator clip on the other end. Connect the aligator clip to the positive side of the battery and stick the blade/pin into one of the fuse slots. One of the fuse slots will run the fuel pump. Check that it is running by listening behind and below the passenger side rear wheel. Note that the fuel pump should be running when cranking (with the fuse in). It does NOT RUN when the key is on.

Report back.

Jeeper31 · 02-24-2006, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoCal Driver
Rounding up; the engine will crank but not run. The cranking speed is the same as when the car would run; that is it's not noticeably faster.

Test these points:

With the key on check for voltage at the coil and at the ignition module.

Pull on of the injector plugs off and check it for voltage. One side will be at the battery voltage the other a bit lower because it's going through the other three injectors.

No voltage at the coil/module is ignition switch problems.

Voltage at the coil but not at the injectors is a DME relay problem.

You state there is spark. Is this at the spark plug connector? Pull of the first spark plug connector, insert a spare spark plug, lay it on the intake manifold to ground the plug and crank the car. Note that the ignition modules have been known to fail. Rarely does the coil fail.

The 'S' models have a single sensor that does both the reference (top dead center on #1) and the speed or rpm reading for the DME. If you have spark then this sensor is working -- adjusted correctly and connected.

As to the grounds on the 'S' models; there have been reports that when the engine to chassis grounds are loose the ground path is through the DME when cranking. This will damage the DME.

Fuel delivery/pressure. Check the fuse for the fuel pump. If the fuse is good make a jumper with a flat "pin" that will go into one of the fuse slots and an aligator clip on the other end. Connect the aligator clip to the positive side of the battery and stick the blade/pin into one of the fuse slots. One of the fuse slots will run the fuel pump. Check that it is running by listening behind and below the passenger side rear wheel. Note that the fuel pump should be running when cranking (with the fuse in). It does NOT RUN when the key is on.

Report back.

The engine is cranking at the same speed as when the ar wold run. As far as sheckig for spark I pulled of the wire and took out the plug. Reattached it placed it on the manifold and there was spark. As far as the fuel pump I pulled he DME relay and used a jumper to get the fuel pump running that way and it ran. Is that the same as using a jumper from battery to fuse?
Is there a way to test the DME? Would I be getting spark when I crank engine if DME was bad?
i will test the voltage and then get back.
Thanks

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

Tests read good so far.

You could be getting spark but no injection pulse. Both are controlled by the DME -- sperately. I would find and buy a noid light. Simple diode device that plugs into the injector socket. Be sure to get the one for Bosch. This tester will blink when there is a pulse to the injector.

The DME relay has two contacts in it. The first powers the DME and the injectors. The second the fuel pump. The fuel pump will run during the cranking of the engine and after the engine starts. It does not run with just the key on (past the accessory detent). While cranking the car have someone listen for the fuel pump running.

The other way is to remove the DME relay and use the Y jumper that www.clarks-garage.com instructs you to make. This replaces the entire DME/fuel pump relay. If the car runs with the Y jumper in place then it's a bad DME relay OR the DME is not pulling in the fuel pump side of the relay. Could also be a bad relay socket. The pin receivers can get bent apart when someone uses a jumper with too thick pins/blades.

Jeeper31 · 02-24-2006, 06:19 PM

I forgot to add that i swapped DME relays with no success.

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

What did the noid light indicate?

Jeeper31 · 02-25-2006, 02:58 AM

Didn't find one yet. Will let you know.

Getting a noid!

Jeeper31 · 08:19 AM

Found a noid light and tested the injector wire. I did not get a light. I then checked the voltage at the wire and there was none. I did do this without any of the injectors attached as they just came back from being cleaned. Does that matter that they were not in? Can i just attach allthe injectors back to tiee sire and carnk the car to be sure? I don't trust myself with a multimeter. What's next? I also can't install them as I am still waiting for my fuel rail.

As usual, thanks.

Dan

Jeeper31 · 02:23 PM

I checked the voltage at the ignition module plug. I didn't know which ones to check so I did them all. I found 11.36 volts between 1-2, 1-3 and 1-5. Nothing between 1-4.

Attached a voltmeter to the black and green wires going to the igntion coil with the ignition switced on and got no reading.

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

That was no noid signal while cranking?

Here is the problem; the power for running the DME and the injectors comes from the same pin on the DME relay. Schematic shows two wires coming of of the one pin. So when you just turn the key on you should see power at one of the two pins on the injector connectors.

We know that the DME is getting power as well as the coil as you have spark.

On the 'S' there is a set of balast resistors for the injectors. Terminal #3 on this resistor pack should show power with the key on. I don't know where this pack is located in the car. Need to check for power on this terminal then on the other terminals.

Jeeper31 · 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by SoCal Driver
That was no noid signal while cranking?

Here is the problem; the power for running the DME and the injectors comes from the same pin on the DME relay. Schematic shows two wires coming of of the one pin. So when you just turn the key on you should see power at one of the two pins on the injector connectors.

We know that the DME is getting power as well as the coil as you have spark.

On the 'S' there is a set of balast resistors for the injectors. Terminal #3 on this resistor pack should show power with the key on. I don't know where this pack is located in the car. Need to check for power on this terminal then on the other terminals.

Right... No noid signal while cranking. It also seems like no power on any pin of the injector connector plugs. Would not having any injectors in cause no power in the connectors? There is a 5th connector on the injector wire. Is this what is connected to the balast?

Saw something called the series resistor for injection valve on the PET. Is that what you are talking about?

SoCal Driver · SoCal Driver's Garage

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeeper31
...

Saw something called the series resistor for injection valve on the PET. Is that what you are talking about?

That should be the one. It's connector has five pins not two like the injectors.