Yet another no-start issue

[Christien]

Man, I'm getting sick of chasing electrical stuff in this car! I've had electrical problems before, but I thought they were solved when I replaced the voltage regulator. Lately I've been having starting issues, thinking it was a dead battery, so I replaced the battery after it wouldn't hold a charge. Then it turns out I've got a slow drain through fuse 7, so I've pulled that, but still getting no start. I turn the key and the starter solenoid clicks once (I can hear it through the floor) and all the lights etc work fine, but no start (no turn over at all, just the starter click). It will start perfectly when I jump it from another car, even if the other car isn't running (tried this with our grocery getter Explorer). I checked the battery with a multimeter - I pooched my good one checking the battery drain, so I'm using some old cheapo one that I can't read properly, (reads ~25 on the 250 AC setting, battery setting only goes to 9v) but I'm getting the same reading on the 944 battery as I am on the Explorer, or at least really close. I'll pick up a new multimeter tomorrow so I can actually get a voltage reading

So any ideas why it won't start off its own battery? Bad grounds somewhere? I cleaned up several of them (including the starter ground) when I had the voltage regulator issue, so at least the easily accessible ones are clean.

Thanks for any thoughts!
Chris

[Eldorado]

I've got a battery charger/cinditioner if you wanna borrow it, christien...

[Christien]

I've got a charger, but what does a conditioner do? Anything different?

(BTW, I just made an addition to "admit to your stupidity thread", in relation to my battery... )
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-911-technical-forum/131836-admit-your-stupidity-post2982055.html#post2982055

[Eldorado]

woah... did it get you? or just go through the wrench??

as for the conditioner, sometimes batteries that cant hold a full charge can be 'brought back to life'... not quite sure how it works though... we had a 10 year old battery out of an oldsmobile that couldn't hold a charge at all.. plugged it in, it did it's thing, now it's like brand new..

[Christien]

Heh, no it didn't get me, just scared the ***** outta me! I was more embarrased for swearing so loudly on such a quiet street! Luckily there weren't any kids out. I have a bad habit of doing that...

The battery's brand new, and as far as I can tell from the POS multimeter I've got, it's fully charged (the sparks from the wrench would attest to that...) so on the one hand I don't think it's the battery that's the problem, but on the other hand, it starts fine when I hook up the jumper cables to the explorer - even when the explorer's not running.

[Eldorado]

i bought a brand new battery last summer... it lasted a few months then it wouldn't hold a charge anymore... after testing with a volt meter, i was getting about 11 volts.... took it to canadian tire.. the small battery tester they have said it was good.. but they hooked it up to the big one in the auto shop, and that one said it was bad.. i had to claim the warranty.

just a thought.. but even though your battery is new, doesn't mean it cant be bad.. when i asked the guy what the return rate was on the batteries, he said 'better than half'....

[Christien]

Hmm, ok, you've convinced me. I'll swap the battery for the one in the Explorer, (with rubber-handled pliers, not a wrench!), start it a couple times, drive it a bit, then swap it back. If it works fine with the Explorer battery but not with the 944 battery, back it goes.

[Eldorado]

you could do that..

but it takes about 30-40 mins in canadian tire for them to check it for free... in the interest of time, this may be your best bet..

maybe you have some christmas shopping to do at canadian tire? hehe

[Christien]

Well, I can do the swap tonight in 10 minutes, and CT is closed now. Rather than wait half an hour in CT I can just exchange at Costco (yeah, I know, cheap POS, but they're $40!) Nope, no xmas shopping at CT for me - hopefully some folks are shopping for me there, though!

[Christien]

Ok, I didn't get to CT last night or today, but I went out to swap batteries today, and just for *****s and giggles I decided to try to start the 944. Boom, fired right up. No complaint, no weak chugging (like a weak battery), just started instantly. Ok, this is weird. Let her run a minute, shut it down, try it again. Starts instantly. So with the few minutes of remaining daylight (yay winter in Canada) I decide to fix the headlight aiming problem, nothing major, just something that's been bugging me for a few days. So even with the headlights on and off for some 30 minutes, it still started up again instantly. 5 starts in total, no failures

A couple details to see if there's any explanation for this:
1. on start #4 it stopped for a brief microsecond as the engine was turning over. Like "chugga-chugga-ch__ugga vroom" It's possible the key slipped in my fingers, or maybe there's a loose wire on the starter
2. I pulled the #7 fuse because that's the one that was draining the battery. That should control the interior light, the radio and clock. Well, my light is not getting power and the clock never did work, but I've still got power to the radio. There never was power hooked up to keep the clock, presets, etc. powered, so it was never the culprit of the drain, but it seems this would reveal some non-factory wiring in there somewhere, no?

So what do I do now? Looks like it's definitely a starter issue, right? Should I pull it and rebuild it? Just buy a new one? My big concern is getting stranded - what can I do to "kickstart" the starter, if it's failing?

[Eldorado]

well if you get stranded, you could always push start your car... I did it for a couple months last year when i had a flaky ignition switch...

check your wires at the battery.. mine did the "chugga chugga ch....ugga" thing a while ago until i rebuilt the connections at the battery.. now, every single time, it starts right up..

the stereo gets 2 power lines.. 1 to keep the time and presets when the car is off.. and 1 to actually power the headunit... a wire in there that is supposed to be connected to the head unit *may* be shorting on something, causing the leak..

[Razorback1980]

The problem is probably not the starter. The problem is more than likely a battery cable at the battery but it could be a bad connection some other place. I am guessing it's at the battery cable because when you put jumper cables on the cable end, the starter receives power and starts the car. This is sort of telling me that the power that is in your battery is never reaching the wire running to the starter....meaning a dirty battery cable connection with the battery post. Could also be on the negative side of things. You can test this using a volt meter and measure the voltage at the starter and it should be app. 14 v. Then measure the ohms between the starter case and the negative post on the battery ...reading should be zero. If those both test good, then the starter may have a dirty connection, but I'm guessing it's the cable going to the starter or ground cable on the back of the engine or the battery posts themselves. You have a legitimate concern about getting stranded, so get out your voltmeter and ohmmeter and check for ground continuity everywhere and check to make sure you have proper voltage at the starter...that should fix it.

[Eldorado]

you could also use your ohm meter with probes... touch one probe to the top of the battery terminal itself, and the other to the terminal connector on the battery wire.. should read 0 ohms.
do that for both the -'ve and +'ve sides of the battery..

clean those connections well... but i'm sure you've already done that.. cant be said enough, though.

[Christien]

Hey guys, thanks again for all the ideas. I'll pick up a new multimeter tomorrow and get right to the testing. The battery's brand new (last week) so I'm sure the posts are fine, but I'll clean up the various wires and double check everything around there. One thing I noticed when I was cleaning up ground earlier in the summer is that when the car was repainted last winter paint seemed to find its way everywhere, so who knows, maybe some got into a ground or into the starter somewhere and is causing an intermittent fault. I think I'll just pull the whole starter off to clean up the connections. In the meantime, though, I've got jumper cables in the car, and I've got a portable power pack for jump starting that I'll make sure I take with me.

Thanks again! I'll report back once I've had a chance to clean up the connections.

[EMBPilot]

did you try smacking the starter with a hammer. seriously. dont do it hard, just give it a tap, on the back and side of the motor body, and the relay.

[Christien]

Yeah, actually, I did that yesterday, although I didn't tap it on the back, more on the side and bottom. I reached under the car from the driver's side and tapped whatever I could reach. I'll keep a hammer in the car, though I remember having to do that with my in-laws old car a few years ago!

[Rick V]

If you are having a drain problem with fuse #7, and most of that is unhooked or inop. there might be an alarm somewhere in the car that was taped into that circuit. It is a good circuit to use since it is hot all the time.

[p-talk]

This'd be my vote too. My old '83 VW GTI had a similar problem once. Just decided to not start, I'd get relay clicks but it wouldn't turn over. I ran my jumper cables straight from the battery to the starter and it started right up. Once I installed new battery cables the problem was fixed.

Good luck man,

Originally posted by Razorback1980
The problem is probably not the starter. The problem is more than likely a battery cable at the battery but it could be a bad connection some other place. I am guessing it's at the battery cable because when you put jumper cables on the cable end, the starter receives power and starts the car. This is sort of telling me that the power that is in your battery is never reaching the wire running to the starter....meaning a dirty battery cable connection with the battery post. Could also be on the negative side of things. You can test this using a volt meter and measure the voltage at the starter and it should be app. 14 v. Then measure the ohms between the starter case and the negative post on the battery ...reading should be zero. If those both test good, then the starter may have a dirty connection, but I'm guessing it's the cable going to the starter or ground cable on the back of the engine or the battery posts themselves. You have a legitimate concern about getting stranded, so get out your voltmeter and ohmmeter and check for ground continuity everywhere and check to make sure you have proper voltage at the starter...that should fix it.