Will new hatch struts cause glass/frame problems

[wild man]

This is an interesting thread. I did put new struts on the 951 2 years ago, and never noticed any problems afterward, that weren't present before hand.

But there IS an issue that HAS seemed to plague ALL on my front-4 p-cars that I have owned (4 of them).

Occasionally the right rear footwell carpet gets completely soaked after a good rain. I believe that the water gets in somewhere near the right side hinge at the top (front) of the hatch. But it does not drip from there, or anywhere else inside of the cars, for that matter. It appears to make it's way down to the carpet, without showing a visible path.

Could THAT possibly be happening as a result of the frame/glass de-lamination issue that is mentioned in this thread?

[GreenWater]

I have the same problem sometimes, but I know what causes mine.(I think) There is a white hose that goes into that area. I believe it is the sunroof drain hose. It should drain through the rear well and out the bottom. If this gets plugged up then the water just sits in there. The next day the car heats up inside and the water goes airborn and then collects in the carpet directly above it.

Now that I am thinking about it. I am not sure. I believe that is the sunroof drain, but why would I be getting that much water draining from the sunroof.

I will have to look closer at this.

[GreenWater]

I took a closer look at the struts and the frame. The frame is all one piece, from the hatch hinges to the part where the strut attaches. A strong strut should have no effect on the glass separating from the frame. The strut is not trying to pull the glass off or anything like that. Unless it is actually bending the frame from the force and hence separating the glass, that could be.

[Dawgz83948]

Originally Posted by GreenWater

Unless it is actually bending the frame from the force and hence separating the glass, that could be.

Not likely. It's stamped in a way that makes it fairly strong. People just like propogating rumors and 1/2 truths that they heard from a friend of a friends 3rd uncle.

[GreenWater]

So, what is really happening? How come no one seems to know. I know I have no idea.

[Arthropraxis]

Probably, 20+ years of UV rays and heat cycling. I just noticed mine is delaminating in one spot.

[johnkoawood]

Originally Posted by GreenWater

I took a closer look at the struts and the frame. The frame is all one piece, from the hatch hinges to the part where the strut attaches. A strong strut should have no effect on the glass separating from the frame. The strut is not trying to pull the glass off or anything like that. Unless it is actually bending the frame from the force and hence separating the glass, that could be.

Yes

Originally Posted by Dawgz83948

Not likely. It's stamped in a way that makes it fairly strong. People just like propogating rumors and 1/2 truths that they heard from a friend of a friends 3rd uncle.

ORLY? I dont have any friends, and if I did I wouldn't listen to their friends, nor their friends uncles..

BUT

I can say, from first hand experience, having totally resealed hatches MORE than once.. the frames while one continual piece are also aluminum, and VERY flimsy..

On a badly delaminated / seperated hatch it isn't uncommon for the frame to be distorted.. and the entire frame does flex quite a bit even when more than half of it is firmly attached to the glass!

IMHO this rear glass attachment method is poor design, quite interesting at the time, but 20+ years later... piss poor design...

[Dawgz83948]

Originally Posted by johnkoawood

Yes



ORLY? I dont have any friends, and if I did I wouldn't listen to their friends, nor their friends uncles..

BUT

I can say, from first hand experience, having totally resealed hatches MORE than once.. the frames while one continual piece are also aluminum, and VERY flimsy..

On a badly delaminated / seperated hatch it isn't uncommon for the frame to be distorted.. and the entire frame does flex quite a bit even when more than half of it is firmly attached to the glass!

IMHO this rear glass attachment method is poor design, quite interesting at the time, but 20+ years later... piss poor design...

Anything that lasts 20+ years can't be a horrible design. Odd, my 83 had a steel frame and there was very little flex when I resealed mine.

[johnkoawood]

Could be early vs late, but each one I have done is a late hatch, flexing frame made of aluminium!

[89-944NA]

I've done struts on all three of my '44s (and numerous friends cars too), and never had a delamination problem. Have to agree with Cocacolakidd, if it's going to delaminate, it's going to delaminate new struts or not.

[mytrplseven]

Wild man: one of the the problems with the rubber drain lines is that they shrink over time and in the case of the sunroof line, it shrinks enough to slide off the metal pipe. This also happens on the temp sensor under the dash (the one on the little plastic round grill near the cigarette lighter) so it doesn't reach the back of the sensor.

Regarding the delaminations issue, the force of the struts pushing the frame rearward is an issue when the delamination begins at the top. The frame is soft and it actually deforms the shape of it to the extent that the entire hatch moves rearward. Mine has moved about 3/8" and the frame near the upper hinge will have to be bent back into it's proper shape before regluing the glass to the frame. I believe the delamination process is a product of not only the pressure of the struts but also the degredation of the sealant from the sun and heat.

My next project

[GreenWater]

mytrplseven - That makes the most sense to me. Logical. My hatch sounds just like what you described. I think I need to do a reseal then get new struts.

[Timmay!]

Let's get more exacting in my terms and throw in some pics.
The glass is pushed backwards constantly by the struts, but it's attached to the aluminum frame. Once the glass becomes unglued from the frame at the top, the flimsy aluminum frame no longer has the strength of the glass to help it. The aluminum frame distorts front to back. I believe it also rolls downward and forward, thus increasing the gap. I have many dead hatches so we disected a couple and took pics.
Greenwater, stop by and see the hatches we did if you want.
When you reseal the hatch glass to the frame shelf properly, you'll also reshape the frame.

[Timmay!]

[GreenWater]

Timmay - Is that picture of a good hatch or a bad one. Mine has a visable gap at the top, about 1/8 inch away from the frame trim piece.(filled with silicone now) I will have to reshape my frame as well. I will probably buy one from you when I have some money.

[GreenWater]

I posted too soon. I didn't see the other pictures. My hatch isn't even close to being that bad. It is only separated on one side and only a little bit.

[brandonvalentin]

My car has old, weak struts and rather than propping up the hatch with a pipe or something, I leave a small vise grip in the trunk. Open the hatch, clamp the vise grip onto one of the struts, and it stays open. Just a tip for those of you considering just living with your old, weak struts.

I have been considering just going for it with new struts myself. At this point my hatch seal is in good shape and I'm willing to fix it if it eventually separates.

[Timmay!]

Keep in mind that these are both bad hatches so we didn't treat them carefully for redoing them. Careful not to crack or chip the edge of your hatch glass!
The FIRST pic shows the rubber trim peeled back to uncover the crimp of the front trim piece. Also shows the weird screw hole to hold down the rubber trim. The rubber edge trim has a metal insert to keep it rigid.
SECOND pic shows front trim piece off. You can see the white line (witness mark) of where the trim piece was and you can also see the dimples in the glass.
THIRD pic is a different hatch still on the car. Completely separated. Front trim was photographed as we found it. Which is moved quite a bit forward.
FOURTH pic has trim piece bent up out of the way and shows the gap of separation from the frame shelf. The glass doesn't fit into a groove but rather is glued to a "shelf." The glass can't stretch so this is the actual measure of the distortion of the aluminum frame.
FIFTH pic shows that the separation continues down around the corner of the frame. NOTE: white corrosion shows the frame is aluminum.
SIXTH pic is showing the narrowed gap between hatch front trim and the roof.
All these pics were taken by a friend of my 3rd uncle.

[Timmay!]

Greenie, if we can get you a good hatch at the shop, just pay me later. Run a tab like other 944 guys do! You might even find one with free tinting! 88's have a different size hole for the wiper motor shaft. Earlies don't have the 3rd brake light. 2 different styles of mounting the wiper motor box. 924S's have a shorter spoiler.
Seems like new struts just make the separation prob worse. You'll probably also have to reset your pin receivers in the back.
Also, almost all the hatch glass separation we've seen is more severe on the drivers side of the car.??
Good luck, guys!

[mcneelm1]

Hi Everyone, great thread. Just had my 84 resealed by a glass buddy for $200. He said the aluminum frame was distorted from one strut being too strong and the other too weak causing it to bend and make the glass seperate from the frame. Have new struts to install.

For the water in the rear foot well, pull the seats and carpet and fill the battery tray with water (that is where mineleaked). Watch the water come in under passenger side dash and run along floor to the back foot well. I fixed my tray with some paint on bed liner (4 coats) and seems to work well. Did not wat to mess around with the fiberglass.