Nice to see the progress on this! One day (hopefully soon) I can do this too. Odd question for you, are you using Metric or SAE tools on this? Just curious if you had to get more SAE tools or not.

Thankfully everything on the LS1 is metric :). Alot of the same sizes as the Porsche also.. 10, 13, 17,19..etc.

Looks good man,
I'm looking to doing this on my 88

Forgot about this thread..

After like 8 months i finally finished the engine,

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...p/IMG_0276.jpg

Decided to have a local shop complete the engine swap for me. They do top quality work and i think they are going to do an awesome job. This year was just normal busy and it took me most of the year to finish the engine. At this rate i would never finish this car. Next year ill be flying between NY and South Korea for most of the year so its going to be even busier. Dropped the car and everything off last week, hope to have it back and ready to go by spring :).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...p/IMG_0286.jpg

cool love the headers, I look forward to seeing it finished, I just finished a LY2 vortec install in my Jeep TJ, now its got me thinking of doing the same to the 944. Here this link to the build if ya like
2.5 to 4.8 swap - Jeep Wrangler Forum


I haven't been on this board in a while its good the the regulars are still here. :D Be careful with all that traveling your doing.

techno, that is gorgeous.

Nice write up, plus it will show peoples that dropping a V8 in a 944 is not all that easy if done properly even for one so mechanically incline as you.Think you did the rigth move getting the install done by shop that can do quality work less headache for sure.:)

it's incredibly difficult to do right. it's even harder in a 968. the 968 ECU controls a lot of things that are disabled with installing a V8, due to being removed and a standalone installed (interior lights, alarm, speedometer, central locking, yada yada). the hydroboost you have to install to replace the brake booster feels like crap too. i know a guy who paid nearly $30k to have a brand new LS installed, and then yanked it out and went back to the 3 liter, because the car drove so badly. everything that made the 968 the car it is, was gone. gobs of torque and all that, but it felt like an old vette, and nothing worked. sad. another $9k to put it back the way it was before the whole mess began.

i hope techno has a better experience.

:rolleyes:

After many years of reading your posts i get it, the 968 is the best car ever made. Please save your endless knowledge and experience for another thread.

For the 944...

Interior lights have no connection to the DME. Alarm (Which my car does not have) can be bypassed and will make no difference with the LSx engine harness. Speedometer works off the trans-axle, not the ABS like on the 968. Central locking has no connection to the DME.

Boosted brakes feel like crap? Well when you compare it to the best car ever made, the 968; i am sure even a GT3's brakes feel like crap.

i have built many of the LS swaps and SBC swaps in the last 3 years on average about 4 a year i have done . one into a 968 there is so much info out there that doing what needs to be done to the ECU's to make every work and work right is very ez .
two of them are my own cars one is a tube chassis with a full fiberglass body running a LS7 motor with a quaife 6 speed sequentail 997 gear box putting out over 700 HP with weight just over 2100 LBS.
the other is just a little SBC 350 motor putting out 400 HP and about the same in tork .

there is in no way the feel of a old vett !
if they pulled the motor and replaced it with another porsche motor because of problems i would have to say the people that worked on the car maybe should not have .

as for the brakes and the hydroboost set up for me was a waist of time and money to do i ran it in my SBC car twice at the track and went right back to the twin masters i had . to make a twin master setup work is also very ez to do you have to have every thing in the system match and work together .
if you complaining about to much peddle effort that your just not using the right size masters .
i run a 12" wide front tire and a 15" wide tire in the rear ( full slicks ) on my LS7 car the brakes have no more peddle effort than my street driven 944's and with the twin masters there is better peddle feel .

as for weight of the motors i have scaled out the 944 motor to the LS1 motors fully dressed out and the weight deferents is only 48 LBS between the two motors . the 944's motors are a very over weight motor they are to costly to build and offer nothing great once you do build them .
years ago in one of my 944's i did a totaly nuts full build to it .after all said and done with the build stand alone , individual throttle bodys and on and on 20K spent what did i have a motor that only put out just over 300 HP . you can drop in a SBC motor and out of the box stock you get that for less than half the cost for every thing .
now don't get me wrong i love the 944's hell i own 13 of them right now well one is a 968 . they are great cars ! the down fall is the crap motors in them it's funny most of the parts are VW,AUDI when porsche designed the motor they really should have done some thing else .

I was in LA recently at a Chumpcar race and ran into a guy who had done the LS1 swap into his 951. It looked nice, but he did mention that he still had to convert from manual to boosted brakes on it, and that with manual brakes they were not as good as before (obviously).

He knew Tony G who has done this conversion as well.

Keep us updated :)

lol - i definitely do not think the 968 is the best car ever made. if i did, i would not have spent $150k trying to make it like i wanted. there are a bunch of cars i put way above the 968. i like our SL550 better than the 968, and think it's a better package overall. i was merely saying that the complications were there, and the result was very disappointing.

the shop that did the conversion is arguably the most known for this, and when i drove the car, i couldn't get out of it fast enough. it was total crap. all of the smoothness of the car was gone. it twisted like nobody's business, was very "on and off" when it came to power application, and there was no "feel" left at all. when you hit the brakes, you had no idea if it was going to stop or not. the pedal feel was completely gone. it was a brute, pure and simple, and no longer the smooth and balanced package.

but all some guys care about is raw power. that's fine. i've built cars like that too. i was young too, and didn't care about things like quiet cabins, smooth rides, balanced cornering, solid braking, and the simple creature comforts like AC, heated seats, nice stereo, yada yada. now i'm old and cranky and want those things. everybody has their own idea of what a car should be like. i don't want to drive a cobra anymore either, but i sure did when i was younger. things change.

again, i hope techno's experience is better than the owner of the one i just drove.

xD

Jeez that post calls for the double eye roll.

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

There are a few options for improving the pedal feel. The manual brakes i think are the biggest complaint from everyone and one of the things that kept me from doing this swap a few years ago. On the 944Hybrid forum here are some of the solutions guys are using with some notable cons of each,

1) Dual master cylinder setup - Places extra stress on the firewall which can cause cracks. Bracing the firewall to the strut tower is the fix though. Also figuring out the right master cylinder sizes to get the bias right can be some trial and error, but there is enough first hand experience now to go off.

2) Tilton pedal box - $$$ and changes the driving position a little, so if your tall this may not be a good solution.

3) Ford hydroboost - Everyone using this on a track car says the rear bias is too much, a Tilton bias valve solves this though. This is the setup i am going to try on my car.

4) BMW 'H31' brake booster - A few guys are in the process of putting these systems in, but havent read any track experience yet. The really nice thing about this setup is that you can use the original 944 master cylinder, so you preserve the brake feel (and bias) as with the original booster.

I am personally going to try the Ford hydroboost setup. I considered the BMW setup but decided against it. My reasoning is this setup was used on E32 BMW's (basically the '80s 7-series).. the parts for this setup are still available but a little harder to come by than the Ford Hydroboost parts. I ordered a brand new hydroboost unit and master cylinder from ******** for under $350 shipped, mind you these were new and not rebuilt parts so you can knock around $100 if you go rebuilt!

i'll see if i can find out which one was in the car i drove. i know it was a "hydroboost" i just don't know which model.

Curious to know the cost of your local shop when you are said and done...

IMHO…it seems as Flash968 can not stand the simple truth that he wasn’t the person that started and/or embraced this movement from the beginning and he will no doubt continue to object to any of the obvious reasons these swaps are a great ‘bang for the buck’ solution when done correctly. His position just confirms that he is worried about being marginalized on this forum and I would expect that soon he will resurface under a new user ID unless he stops slandering these perfectly sensible swaps.

not at all. frankly i would love to see one of these actually get done right. i keep hearing about them but every time i see one, it's poorly done. the last one was a nightmare, and this was supposed to have been done by an expert, with a huge budget.

perhaps i just have higher standards in what i think a car should be like. i expect the same thing from a conversion that i expect from a manufacturer in stock form. first it is that everything works, with no compromises or excuses. next it is that it does not reduce reliability or increase maintenance. after that, i could really care less. unfortunately i continually find these things to be lacking in one or both of the areas. they either don't run right, or "need a little tuning", or have something rattling, or something doesn't work like original.

i applaud those who step outside the box, and hope to someday see and drive one of these that works.

i like the idea so much that i came extremely close to doing this myself a couple of months ago. i had my engine out, and had plenty of money to do this. i spent $20k on building that motor, so it's not like i wasn't fully prepared in budget to do the conversion. it just didn't work in the car i drove, and it was done by somebody who does these all the time, so i figured it was a hopeless concept. i mean, if they guy spent a bucket of dough, and hired the expert, and it still came out like that, what different result could i expect? after driving the other car, i went back to the supercharger instead, just as did the owner of that car. now i have almost the same power, but it works, and is smog legal. i think i made the right call. we'll see.

it sounds to me as if you are beginning to come over to the same side and to the same challengers as these other folks are enjoying ;-))

not sure what you mean.

my position has never changed on this. i've done a bunch of conversions like this in other cars. i'm a huge fan of the idea. but, they didn't all turn out perfectly either. sometimes the car just wasn't suited to whatever conversion the customer wanted me to do. sometimes it was perfect.

i'd love to see this work, and i keep hoping. so far, i have not come across one that said to me "this could have been done by a car manufacturer". the example i just saw was incredibly disappointing, especially given how long they took, and how much money was dumped into it.

I've got to say, I felt the same way as flash the first time I drove a sports racer. It was just too fast, the brakes took too much effort, and it seemed impossible they would be able to haul the car down from some pretty insane velocities. The steering was overly precise and the car felt twitchy, and I couldn't get used to modulating the throttle. It was impossible to control the mad acceleration. I just never got comfortable.

In the end, I was really happy to get back into my buddy's Miata, and feel the gentle body roll, nice power brakes, and that hundred buttery smooth horsepower.

I guess I am just more comfortable in a grand touring car.

Is that a Joke?

lol - nope. if you ever get a chance to drive a car like that, you'll know what he's saying. there is such a thing as too much power for the car.

maybe find a Camry?

I don't see what all the fuss is about. This is a very easy swap, all of the problems have been worked out. You can have power steering, A/C, power brakes and all of the options can work. If you are running out of brakes on the conversion you would be running out of brakes with the turbo motor at the same HP levels.
At local car shows, people that don't know what they are looking at think it is the factory motor. It gets comical. One guy asked if it was a turbo. I told him the body was so he told his buddy that it was just an NA and it wasn't that fast, probably only made 150 HP.

getting the motor in there is easy. getting the car working properly is not. just getting the brake balance right is a pain, let alone the suspension tuning and chassis work needed. it's not "plug and play"

too many people just don't know what a properly set up car should feel like, so they think it's "just fine" or they "never had a problem". lol - i guess any sex is better than no sex, but once you've had great sex, your perspective changes.

done right, i think this could be great. done like every one of the street cars i've seen so far, it's a mess. i'd love to see one done right. i'm going to be traveling all over the country, and i would be happy to pop in and see one, wherever it is.

Rasta, Flash,

This is an interesting post. I have allot of respect for Techno as he has been very helpful when I rebuilt my 83 a few years ago. I was surprised when he decided to go to the LS1 route. He has been very methodical in the build process. It is of interest to me because I have toyed with the idea if/when I had to rebuild/replace the engine.

I respect both of your opinions - I wonder: What is a mess? I understand the engine fits one could upgrade brakes and suspension. The devil is always in the details - do you compromise each system (hp, torque, gearing, etc) to create the perfect 'balance' between all of the systems? Are there benchmarks for instance:

Use this LS engine, with these components
Use this transmission.
Use 952 brakes
Tires
Suspension
Exhaust
Stiffen the body
etc, etc, etc,


I believe the end use is equally as important: is it a track car, daily driver, show car, or hot rod?

What are your thoughts?

Hi kdjones2000, that was me. Just found this thread.

Sorry, I think we meant to meet up again later that day at the race, but the car we were driving lost it's (manual) brakes and some other stuff so we bailed out pretty quickly.

I do want to boost the brakes, eventually, although that is not on top of my list.

I've been DD'ing the car for the past two years, have had a number of cars with manual brakes, and presently have a 911 with manual brakes, so, for me, around town, the brakes work well enough that I haven't felt the need strong enough to put the effort into boosting them yet. In fact it feels weird now when I drive one of my other cars that do have power brakes.

On a track car, like the '67 Mustang we were chumping that day, I think power brakes would definitely be a big benefit.

flash968, thanks for your personal opinions, (many) others may reasonably disagree.

if you've ever had the opportunity to drive a properly designed car, it's not hard to figure out what's right and what's wrong. rattly, twisty, finicky cars are wrong. smooth, connected, solid cars are right. this applies to stock and modified cars.

just start with chassis flex. there is a huge difference between the early and late 944 chassis. the amount of flex is easy to measure. the torque of the stock engines results in a certain amount of flex. increase torque and you increase flex. you have to do things to manage that. even porsche did it with the S2 and the 968. it's pretty basic. even the S2 and 968 chassis though is pretty soft. being a unibody, it transfers well, but with double the torque, some further reinforcing is needed.

the extra 100lbs up front also changes the transfer physics, so in addition to needing larger brakes anyway, even more braking needs to be added to the rear, as well as spring stiffening all around to handle both the new weight, and the amount of rear squat due to the increased power and weight transfer on torque. i just went through this on my supercharged car.

as i said, fitting the engine in there is child's play. getting things to all work in concert is the trick. i've done a couple dozen V8 conversions in various cars, including one in a 944. some worked very well. some didn't. it was always about what was done to the rest of the car, and never about just getting the engine in there. in the case of the 944, that guy wanted to make a 1/4 mile car out of it, and using a blown small block ford. i told him it was the wrong car for it, but he wanted it, and was not willing to do the necessary bracing. in the end, the car was left on 3 wheels after the first launch.

admittedly i've only driven one V8 968. it was done by arguably the best shop in the country for V8 conversions on these, with nearly $30k spent in the process, and it was horrible to drive. tons of torque, but no way to control it. in the end, that owner removed the V8 and went back to the supercharged 3 liter.

to do it right, you start with a new motor, a fresh trans and driveline that has been set up for that much power, and then of course the suspension changes, brake changes, and big enough tires and wheels to handle all of that.

i would love to see one of these that has really been done up. i think the concept is sound, and would be great fun to drive. i just haven't seen one yet that has had all of that done. it's likely because it would cost nearly $50k to do it, and that just doesn't make sense to most people. i think it would, and proof of that is in the fact that i have spent $150k on my 968. i almost did the V8 conversion when i did my motor. if i had a decent template to follow, i probably would have. given my experience with the other car though, and the fact that i just didn't want to start a new huge project like that, i went instead with the supercharger.

i definitely think a V8 in one of these would be great. i wish they had gone forward with the 928 cabriolet (they only made 1). i'd have one if they did.

:rolleyes:
Jeez do you ever stop talking out of your ass?
:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

roflmao - whatever

[QUOTE=acorad;7196218I do want to boost the brakes, eventually, although that is not on top of my list.

[/QUOTE]

I was trying to get a custom hydroboost mount made by a company that produces them for different applications. They have the vacuum booster and cereal bowl to make the mount, but I lost interest. If you want to contact them I can PM you the contact info. They said it would be about $200 for a mount or $750 for a new system including,fittings, mount and the hydroboost unit itself. You had to provide the MC.

is there more than one hydroboost unit, or is it adjustable? that was one of my biggest gripes about the car i drove. the brakes felt like there was nobody home. the car stopped, though not as well as stock. the pedal really felt like crap though. not confidence inspiring when you consider how fast the car could go with that much power.

You can run GM, Ford or BMW hydroboost. With the BMW unit an original Porsche MC can be used from an 86 951 but not late model, IIRC. With the GM or Ford units an adjustable proportioning valve can be added for bias.

hmmm - i'll have to see what he used. it wasn't a bias issue. it was a complete lack of proper pressure. the pedal feel was non-existent and the car just wasn't grabbing well. it was fine before the swap, and then crap after. it wasn't like air in the lines either. i'm not sure how to describe it. it's like the pressure ratio of pedal to brake engagement was way wrong. it felt a lot like driving an old drum brake car.

OK guys, let's stop arguing about the concept and let the guy finish his car. I am interested in his progress and results regardless of how I personally feel about his choice. Deep discussion on the concept of a V8 944 is for another thread. Less thread-jack and more V8 swap craziness please.

lol - i'm definitely not arguing about the concept. i think the concept is quite sound. i've just not yet seen anything but half-done execution yet. but then, i left the days of cobbled together cars a very long time ago, and have higher standards now. i would very much love to see one that is done properly. i'm sure somebody will do it or has done it. i would love for them to pop up and let us know so i could go check it out. hopefully this one gets done right, and then we can all look on in awe.

I'm going to put my engineer's hat on here. I like to problem solve wholistically, as I have learned making a change to one thing or item in a system affects all of the related components at every level. I'm also of the belief that one bad idea usually generates another.

I'm not a car builder but an avid car fan. I seen lots of muscle car, hot rods, pure restorations and the like. In anything I have done, studying and researching needs to be completed before putting pencil on paper or turning a wrench. I'm somewhat of a perfectionist and I like doing things right the first time and I don't take shortcuts.

If I was to undertake this process, I would look at the system: engine, transmission, weight of the vehicle/weight distribution, steering, suspension and electrics to name a few. Even if this is thoughly gone threw and implemented, I'm sure that the car is still a work in progress until enverything is sorted out.

I like looking at this at a man's journey. I don't judge any work until it's done.