Looks fantastic!

Great thread! Looking forward to seeing it at the track!

250 miles on the car so far and it's been running well, but not without its issues. A few oil leaks from the AN hoses, wiring issues that lead to a toasted cooling fan.

The major issue I am having is with the clutch disengagement causing difficulty getting it into 1st and reverse from a stop. After much troubleshooting, I believe the clutch is not fully disengaging. The issue likely being the clutch disc hub pressing on the pilot bearing. This was an issue with some early Spec conversion discs and looks like I might have one of them.

Hope to have this sorted out in a few weeks.

As of now I should be home for Hersey and plan to make the trip out with it.

Overall it drives really well and I am quite happy with it. The car is deceptively fast because I'm so used to the turbo lag with it. I've only gone half throttle with it once up to 5k and it's damn fast! Still breaking in the clutch and it's in the 20's so I've been pretty easy on it still.

Drivability is good but it's not perfect. I want to get around 500 miles on it before I have it tuned. The main gripes being 12mpg mixed and a high idle that hunts around before settling. I only have a base tune on it right now for the larger injectors so this is to be expected due to the intake changes, cam and exhaust.

As with any swap there is a learning curve. Having completed an 944 LS and a 928 LS swap, the most critical area is the clutch setup. The lucky ones (hybriders) stumble upon the clutch dos and donts before they get started. The clutch disc and throw out bearing adjustment, if using aftermarket,has to be addressed. The rest is easy to adjust/tweek on the fly.
Once any small bugs are worked out and a good tune is done, you realize what mediocre performance the Pcar once was.

Looks fantastic - I hope to make Hershey to unload some of my spare parts and would enjoy checking this out in person.

Just curious, did this swap crest $50k in cost? Another forum member here is throwing around what seem to be ever increasing dollar values for modifications/swaps. Noting here in this thread he claimed $30k... seems like trolling if I've ever seen it.

The cost of my swap was less than half the $50k made up number and i spared little expense. Realistically, i think an LS swap can be done in the area of $10-15k. $10k for a bare bones, no frills swap, $15k for one well equipped with boosted brakes. This includes labor. I would say $20k is easy depending who you are paying for labor and if you go all out on the motor build or not.

As for the car, its running great. I have a little under 700 miles on it so far. The clutch issues actually ended up being transmission issues, long story but mostly related to how long the car sat. Put in a spare AOR box i kept as a spare, so the car shifts great now. Ive done two auto-x events with the car so far and have been 100% satisfied in the feel and performance of the car. It is extremely capable and if anything the car feels even more nimble now with the engine response, no more sluggish turbo.

Most of the teething issues have been worked out. To my surprise none of the issues i had were really related to the swap, all were either lack of attention to detail or just straight up poor workmanship. I think i mentioned earlier i was not too happy with a few things the shop that finished up the car did. My usual goto shop were a big help sorting some of the things out and i spent a few weeks on it myself also. There are still a few things that need to be addressed which i hope to work out over the spring. Ive started cutting out all the unused wiring under the hood, still have one more bundle of wires to go. All of the wiring along the firewall still needs to be organized a little once i finish cutting out all the unused stuff. Still battling some oil leaks from the AN hoses which i think is a result of cheap fittings and damaged seats on the AN fittings due to overtightening (part of the issues with the shop that finished up the car). I have a rather expensive box of Aeroquip fittings and hose sitting at the house. Ill be redoing all the lines in a few weeks when i get back home.

As long as the weather is good i will be at Hershey with it. Really looking forward to making the drive out.

Thanks for sharing. It will certainly help guide other folks to see and hear a first hand experience. Curious how much is labor or if you can tell from your records. Would be good for the full DIY folks who are looking for an exhaustive list of parts and any "gotcha" areas or costs.

I should probably go through my swap and come up with some of that stuff. Mine was completely DIY with an engine pretty much nobody uses. It took us about 2 years to do, but we came in under $2000 for the swap and we were only working 1 day a week with a 6-month break in the middle.

The time and money spent on a complete DIY, no kit parts swap is going to vary wildly depending on the person's resources and abilities. A swap using a kit is going to be a lot easier to come up with a smaller price range for.

Thinking about it a little more, i think realistically $15k-20k is a good estimate for a clean LSx swap with power brakes. This includes labor. $10k would be something like a non boosted brake setup with a 5.3L Vortec or iron block motor. Just note, the 5.3L is essentially the same block as the LS1 with smaller displacement, they use the same heads, cam and a number of other parts. GM produced thousands of these motors over a long period so they are easy to find also.

Here is i think a better idea on how to price a project like this. All this info is subjective because everyone has different ideas on the finished project. Now this is speaking in the confines that you are paying someone to do the labor.

I would factor in somewhere between $6-10k labor which really depends where you bring it and what kind of experience they have doing this type of swap; like all projects like this there is a learning curve. And with that said, how much information you provide them for the build can save them alot of time.

Engine costs also vary greatly, a LS1 in good condition can be had for around $3-4k. A brand new crate LS3 with GM warranty is around $5k. 5.3L Vortech motors can be had in the sub $2500 range. Just remember the F-Body accessory drive brackets are the ideal setup to fit the engine. These brackets are all relatively inexpensive and easy to find separately.

Parts specific for the swap such as the oil pan, uprights, headers and bell housing adapter (plus a number of other things) will all run around $2500. These are all the parts that most people are not able to fabricate themselves, so it saves alot of time and money. I purchased all of my conversion parts from TexasPerformanceConcepts.Com ; everything fit great also.

So after that start factoring in the cost of rebuilding the motor, boosted brake components, accessory drive parts, fittings, hose and everything else needed to complete the swap. These motors are pretty stout though. I bought mine used with 58k miles on it out of an '04 GTO that was rear ended. Parts are cheap and the motor is really easy to work on. I put in bigger cam, made some upgrades to the valve train (springs, pushrods and rocker arms), rebuilt the heads, resealed the entire motor, upgraded the timing chain, replaced the chain sprockets, installed a blue printed oil pump and a number of other things. I dont think i have more than $1500 into the entire motor build and the cam makes up about 1/3 of that cost! Have i mentioned parts are super cheap and easy to get?

Lots of variables to work within. But i think with a budget of around $7-8k in parts and $7-8k in labor is a good ball park estimate.

The engine swap isn't for everyone, i try to give my unbiased opinion unlike some people on here. This was a long and expensive process for me and i lost interest more than a few times. Was it worth it? Well even with all of the little issues i had to iron out and just 700 miles on it i think so. If i cared about resale value i would have bought a 993 and make a concourse car.

Jon, I've been waiting for a post like this, and have been in a similar situation in the last couple of years (like you, a little less time and personal shop access, so I ended up buying a 996 that placed pretty high at Parade that I'm not tempted to change) but I still would love a car roughly like your 944 is now.

Thanks for the measured look at the project. When you get back and have some time, you should do a 'final' walk through with more pictures!

I will continue to post updates on the car periodically to let all interested parties know how the car is holding up over time. I am hoping to have the car tuned within the next 4-5 weeks when i get some time off at home, at that point ill find out what most are probably interested in which is how much power it makes.

I am also hoping to make a track day in May which will really be the true test of how the car performs.

Anyhow, i have a build thread on the 944Hybrid forum which has much more detail from over the course of the build for those interested in seeing the process. I typically will update that more often than this thread. The forum is also a great resource for the LSx swaps, many knowledgeable contributors and pretty much all the information you need to do the swaps can be found here. When i get some free time i have been meaning to come up with some posts detailing some areas of the swap such as the hydroboost and power steering setup and clutch components. Mostly just to detail the fittings used, hose routing possibilities and a general description of the parts.

Techno Duck's LS1 conversion

http://944hybrids.forumotion.com/

Also i should be at the Hershey swap meet on the 19th if any interested parties want to check the car out, i will happily answer any questions also.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psb861e3d0.jpg

we can't see the photos unless we sign up. just saying.

I finally got the chance to see John's car up close and personal, yesterday. I have to say, Ive seen and done a lot of engine swaps in different vehicles over the years, and his has to be one of the cleanest and best engineered ones Ive ever come across. Everything looks like it factory designed. John did an incredible job. It gave me a huge inspirational boost to go ahead and do the swap in mine.

I didn't get a chance to ride it in but, I will say. it sounds totally bad ass! It was definitely a head turner at Hershey. I wish him the best of luck with it!

.

Damn... Jon I looked for you but I was there early... 7:30 till about 10am....must have missed you!

Job well done Jon!
Hi Vinny, missed hershey this year, but hope to see both of you guys soon!

I was also able to see the car yesterday in Hershey. It's great work and sounds like a beast!

Thanks for answering my questions, the steering wheel, and being an all around nice guy Techno Duck. :-)

Great to meet some of you guys and appreciate the complements on the car.

Joe, surprised you couldnt find me. I was in the guards red Porsche. We got in around 9am, i stayed until about 1pm.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psb91ddcd6.jpg

Drove out with a group from the MetroNY PCA and we hauled ass on the way out, car performed great the entire time. I did have some issues on the way home with the shifting again which required a pit stop at a Target parking lot off i78 to bleed the clutch hydraulics. Luckily its easy to do with the remote bleed line; no crawling under the car needed. This is a common issue with the C5 Vette also. I still have some troubleshooting to do because shifting is still problematic into reverse (nearly impossible to engage), need to check the adjustment on the linkage today.

That was kind of a sour spot, but overall the car performed awesome. No other problems over the 400 mile trip. I did get stuck in some pretty heavy traffic cutting through Manhattan on the way back. Big surprise. On 32nd street a guy yelled "REV IT!".. so i gave it a healthy application of the loud pedal which turned quite a few heads :D.

While in traffic the water temps were creeping up to the 200 degree range. It was mid 60's ambient so i am anticipating potential issues over the summer with extended idling in traffic. Right now it utilizes one 13" SPAL fan which moves about 2000cfm. There is currently no shrouding around the fan, so i am sure that will help immensely. The other option is to put in two smaller 11" fans which should move around 2600cfm combined. Turning on the heat full blast brought the temps right down, so i suspect either of these two options should be enough.

very nice projets ur finishing here ! congrats man !

How about a video? Gratuitous throttle blips, donuts... the usual. :)

Tuned earlier today.

382whp / 348tq

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U1eHJgcfcfk

That sounds so goooood.

I finally found a 944 Turbo for cheap, which will donate its engine to my 924S. Hopefully sometime within the few years I can pack an LS1 engine into the 944 Turbo shell and end up with two very fast cars. :D

Very nice. Those are healthy numbers too.

Just read this thread from beginning to end. Great read! Really impressive project, looks like you've given it heaps of thought, researched it well and are now enjoying the results!

The only thing that frustrates me is that the shop that you judged to be good, did not live up to your expectations. That happens to me so often when I try and save time by delegating work out ... I find that so frustrating!

Look forward to hearing further updates as you shake out the last of the gremlins :)

A little update..

Have not been able to drive the car much since i had it tuned due to work / travel.

Still having issues with the shifting also. I have narrowed it down to the torque tube spinning continuously even with the clutch pedal depressed. I have ruled out not enough throwout bearing travel as being the issue, have ran with and without the throwout bearing shim provided by Spec. Despite all of the travel, the clutch disc is dragging on the pressure plate.

Going to tear it down again for inspection, ive got a few ideas as to the cause...

-Possible bent clutch disc; could have been caused while installing the engine, shipping damage or just manufacture defect
-Inspect splines on torque tube; could be hanging up on the splines, i dont think this is it because the disc and be wiggled back and fourth with clutch depressed pretty easily.
-Inspect pilot bearing and adapter; Possible the bearing or adapter is in contact with the clutch disc, i also feel this is unlikely because all of this was double checked before.

A few other things to complete also; going to remake all of the oil lines which i hope will stop the sweating fittings on the oil cooler. Decided to redo all of the lines with Aeroquip hose and fittings.

Monthly update;

We finally figured out what was causing the shifting issues a few days ago. After tearing down the clutch assembly, we found the pilot bearing and adapter had started walking out of the crank. This was causing the adapter / pilot bearing to press up against the clutch disc hub, which in turn was causing it to drag on the pressure plate.

Loctite bearing retaining compound was used on the adapter so it should stay put this time around.

Below you can see where the pilot bearing / adapter was rubbing on the hub. We replaced the disc with a new stage 2 from Spec for good measure.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psc6e8c7c9.jpg

We also checked the engagement of the torque tube into the pilot bearing for good measure. Here it is mocked up with no pressure plate, flywheel or clutch disc.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps69c014ab.jpg

Ive put just over 100 miles on it so far and it now shifts without any issues finally. Being able to drive it now without the shifting problems i can say it is a true pleasure to drive. Despite all the issues that popped up during the build i can say it was really worth all the work and money spent.

Now that i can focus on some small odds and ends, i finally hooked up the check engine light. Originally i had this tied into the 'low oil level' light on the cluster. But i found the circuit for the low level light is fairly complicated and involves a timer..as a result it would give me some weird occurrences of the light being illuminated due to how the light operates. Read the owners manual for a description and you will see what i mean! I used a 12v panel mount LED and cut a sheet of aluminum to fit into one of the blank spaces on the gauge panel below the radio. All that needed to be hooked up were a 12v to the LED and the ground wire to the engine harness CEL ground wire. As ive said before, the wiring on this engine swap was one of the most simple parts.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psda967a0b.jpg

Another thing i am working on is improving the cooling at idle / low speeds. Right now i am using a single 16" SPAL puller fan. The fan is barely adequate; it will maintain temperature when it kicks on but is not able to actually cool the car off. So after extended idling the fan will stay until you get moving again. I feel the lack of a proper shroud around the fan is the cause of this. My other gripe with this fan is it pulls quite a few amps at startup. The fan is rated at 19.5amps while running, at start its probably closer to 25amps+. I purchased a set of dual SPAL 11" fans with shroud that should work with some modifications. These two fans will flow an extra 700cfm about and also utilize a shroud which should provide a big improvement over what i am using now. Each smaller fan is rated at 11amps running, my plan is to use the PCM to stagger the temp each fan kicks on at by 1 degree so they dont both kick on at the same time. This will reduce the instantaneous current draw. Ill report back in a week or two once i get everything figured out.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps1979eb7e.jpg

Hoping to make a track day the first track day in late August. :cool:

Ive got just over 2500 miles on the swap and next month it will be one year since completion. So here is the one year update...

The car has been running great. I did a two day track event in October, car ran great but my second day was cut short by a leaking power steering rack. The original steel hard lines were bent to fit around the oil pan which weakened the banjo fittings. I put in a rebuilt rack and converted all of the hard lines to -4AN stainless braided hose so i could route everything away from the pan.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...pskefods7s.jpg

The cooling issues have been solved by putting a stronger 16" fan in with straight, rather than curved blades. The straight blade fans are louder, but are able to pull more air through a thick radiator core like what i have on the car now.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps35773816.jpg

Ive also relocated the heater control valve to a more friendly spot. Originally the valve was mounted right over the headers and it was actually starting to melt from the heat! I relocated it to forward of the headers and remade the heater hoses to fit a little better. Fits like a glove!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps1830ad23.jpg

The car performed great on the first track day, the handling really hasn't changed much at all. Still very predictable and balanced. The only major difference is i am now very careful to have the wheel almost straight before really getting on the gas at corner exit. The engine makes 380whp / 360tq so its not a super powerhouse, but definitely will step out if your not careful. With the turbo you could be practically full throttle mid turn and by the time you unwind the wheel full boost is just coming on. The hydroboost brakes worked great but have taken some getting used too. The pedal is very sensitive now to input. Previously, 0-100% brake was achieved through say 2-3 inches of pedal travel. Now with the hydroboost, its changed to maybe 1-2 inches of travel. Overall though the car felt great and by the end of the first day i was pretty comfortable with it.. just like old times!

No issues with cooling; though i think i may need to size up the oil cooler eventually. I was running around 230*F at the end of the session in about 50 degree ambient temps. This might be problematic during those 90 degree track days. Ill keep an eye on this over the course of the year. I had originally sized this oil cooler to fit under the nose panel but ended up placing it in front of the radiator. So i can definitely go quite a bit larger.

So the first year as i expected i was working out all of the bugs. This project was no small undertaking but the end result i think was well worth it. I am pretty confident the car is pretty well shaken down at this point. Looking forward to more track miles next year!

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps004da0fd.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psd6883312.jpg

Nice read. Glad you're enjoying it.

What an awesome build.

I have the opposite braking problem with a swapped (non-944) race car right now: the assist is fine, but the master cylinder is a little small for the very big brakes so there's too much pedal travel. I wonder if there's a different master cylinder you could fit, or if you could reduce the brake boost a little to change the pedal feel.

Charlie, while mocking up everything for the brakes the push rod on the hydroboost unit is moving to almost full stroke so i dont think there is much i can do. The entire brake setup (hydroboost and master cylinder) is from a '00ish Ford Mustang so I am guessing it must have a slightly longer pedal which increases the pedal travel somewhat. Its really not too big a deal, just takes some getting used to. I think eventually i would consider putting in a Tilton pedal box

Depending what kind of setup your using, you can find a master cylinder with a larger bore size. This will lower your pedal travel, but the downside is that it will increase pedal effort. That is mostly an issue though if you are running a manual brake setup. I tried 4 or 5 different size clutch master cylinders for my car before i felt i had the best one, its surprising how much +/- .05" in bore size makes in pedal effort and the engagement point of the clutch.

Unfortunately i haven't been able to drive the car much after reloacting to SoCal. The car is currently in NY; in storage at a friends shop. I was back in NY a few weeks ago and was able to put about 500 miles on the car. Currently at just over 3k miles since the swap.

Many bugs had to be worked out in that time but its running great. I did a 2-day auto-x also and had a ton of fun with the car. The 944 chassis is really well suited to the power band of the LS. Its still surprising also how quickly the car changes directions with the big lump of a V8 upfront. I know the weight different is marginal between the two but still surprises me! This was the first test of the new steering rack setup and it held up great. Right now the car really doesnt need much more attention which is a relief, i think all the bugs have been worked out by now.

Ive been kicking around the possibility of selling the car. Registering the car in CA will be extremely difficult as i never thought i would have to pass a smog check when it was being built. So that means it will likely turn into a trailer queen to and from the track. I bought a 911 3.2 earlier this year also so restomodding that has become my new focus. Still unsure what to do but i am looking into storing it for a couple of years until i decide to go tow vehicle + trailer.

Here are some recent pictures :)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...spygqkvrs.jpeg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psahwa8qoe.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...ps9rk7ddil.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...pskrda8md7.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psygjx6a3k.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psadenfoax.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psn7ytyyhk.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...pskpcc0pzd.jpg

I've done the long term storage thing before for a couple years with a car... And also the SoCal thing too. Just a career hop that brought you to SoCal or something more lifestyle/long term choice? There is an option of a rural Arizona (not maricopa county) address or just flying New York tags indefinitely. I ran out of state tags the years I was there and have a friend who still runs Maine tags now nearly decade later. Not sure if NY ties registration to an inspection.

Got tired of NY and needed a change of pace; hard to beat the weather also!

I think i have thought of every possible scenario to keep the car registered. NY does tie the registration to the inspection so best case scenario ill be okay for 2-years until my registration expires. I did eventually plan on towing to and from the track, just not ready for that type of commitment yet. The other catch is storage, hate to be paying for monthly storage but at the same time i love the car and know that its one that could never be replaced. I cant even estimate how much time and money i have into this car over the past 7-8 years.

The car now resides in SoCal, had it retuned for 91oct this morning. Took out 2 degrees of timing up top to increase the safety margin, result was a drop in 20bhp. Still puts down 363whp / 349ft-lbs which is more than enough :)

I don't drive the car much on the street anymore but when i do its always fun...for about two hours max then the loud exhaust, heavy clutch and terrible drone at 2500rpm gets to me. Getting the car ready to hit some tracks on the west coast next year, retuning for 91oct pump gas was high on the list. Pretty much the last thing to do is quiet the car down a bit and install a 2nd muffler so it will pass sound at Laguna Seca. Just over 3.5k miles on the swap with a few track and auto-x days on it. So far so good. One thing to address is the shifting which has very high effort right now. Not sure if its linkage related or possibly the fluid (perhaps to slippery for the synchros). Not sure what the shop used when they put my transmission in.

https://youtu.be/uaeCsMWr4Tk

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psrlaqyr45.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psz6ycsmpd.jpg

Nice to hear from you Jon, Happy Holidays to you.

Still looking good Jon, enjoy the weather out there (for all us east coasters back here)

Still very healthy numbers after the re-tune....and enjoy the 911, last of the air-cooleds.

Well as far as projects go i think this one is done, so i figure its a good time to move on. 13 year 944 owner, 8 years with this one.. hard to believe!

1988 944 Turbo
Guards Red / Black Interior
132,XXX miles
4k+ miles since V8 swap

Details available here;
http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-cars-sale/917845-fs-ls1-swapped-88-944-turbo.html

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psozisndjx.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...pscmwjyq3b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psxnkqlju3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v1...psdfy9ghjx.jpg

Man, say it ain't so!! Been in the game almost as long as you, watched the build on the turbo motor grow then got pulled for the v8. Been a pleasure reading this thread for the last couple years. Who ever buys this car will have quite the beast and correctly built as well. Looks good Jon, as always. Good luck with sale!

Question!
 

Did you use the porsche crossmember? or fab one for the Ls? also did you use the original brembo brake calipers or did you need to upgrade the caps and rotors? lastly atm did you need to reinforce the chasis or anything like that? im contimplating this swap myself and any info i could get would be awesome.

The original crossmember is used but it is mounted with 1/2" spacers to give you more clearance under the hood, mainly around the throttle body.

I am still using the Brembo calipers, though i have 928S4 (same as 944 Turbo S) calipers on the front. I had done this prior to the engine swap. With the right pads and some form of cooling i have found this setup to be more than adequate on the track.

No other changes to the chassis are required, the 944 chassis is solid to begin with and it handles the LS without any issues. My engine isnt making crazy power levels either, guesstimating with my initial tune of 380whp it is probably in the area of 440bhp at the crank. There are more than a few well equipped 944T's making similar power levels. The big difference being in power band though, the LS is making close to 200ft-lbs of torque as soon as your done engaging the clutch :). Just need to be easy on the drivetrain, no hole shots or launching the car, always roll on the throttle.

Save yourself time and money and just buy mine ;)

Thanks man, my time with this car was an experience none the less! To say i am a 944 enthusiast is probably a huge understatement. I bought an air cooled car last year and have been restomodding it which has sucked up all my time and money. I have my eyes set on another, i picked an expensive time to like air cooled cars :(.

meanwhile back to the thread. Im listening to you Duck.