Really need advice: save this engine?

[Slam]

Got the motor out of wifey's 87 auto this morning. I believed it threw a rod but it turns out it hasn't. Bearings and journals are fine. Haven't stripped it yet but I don't expect to find any damage. Flex damper, however was completely disintegrated. I have the clutch parts to fix that, so I'm not concerned about it.

The lower BS housing, however, has been repaired at some point with what looks like JB Weld or a similar epoxy. Given that, is the block toast? I'd think that as long as the shaft turns freely and doesn't leak it could go many more miles. But it could also be a ticking time bomb.

I've got all I need for a top end rebuild, just need pan gasket, rod bearings and rod nuts.

But given the epoxy repair, should I even be thinking about saving this engine?

Thanks!

[John_AZ]

Slam,

Can you post a picture where the epoxy repair is located on the lower balance shaft housing?

Your knowledge of the engine and knowing that each balance shaft housing is matched/machined to the shaft means that the PO had to do the epoxy repair in a non critical area or have it taken to a specialized welding shop and have it repaired profesionally.

If the shaft spins freely and you have the parts to repair the flex disc and block, I would have a welding shop give you the final answer if you want a permanent repair.



GL
J_AZ

[Slam]

Yup. John, I agree.

Getting a pic up here soon will be tricky, as I'm relegated to using my iPhone. That said, the repair was done right at 11 and 12 in the torque sequence above. I think they got away with it as the side housing itself isn't load-bearing; the 87 has bearing bridges. As long as the nose doesn't bind it may be alright. Yes, I know the block/bb covers are a matched set, which is partly why I ask. Knowing too much could be the kiss of death for this motor, you know? I'm wondering how much risk I 'm willing to accept. There's nobody near here that can work magic with aluminum.

And how does a bb housing break there??

[Slam]

Will do top end autopsy tomorrow. How i proceed will be influenced by what I find up there. This one totally fooled me, as I was sure the thing threw a rod. Must've been the limp tabs on the flex damper. Sounded so similar! And what a racket - making marbles like crazy.

[Volhv]

Has anyone challenged the "matched set" dilemma by trying a cover from a different block? As long as the different cover does not leak or bind... it should be fine. You'd think both the block and cover are machined flat.

[Slam]

Actually, yes, some have. I read about a gent on Rennlist who went through a box of covers and finally found one that worked for him. Fine if you have them lying around...

[Slam]

Head's off. Very little scratching in cylinders (only one small one caught my fingernail and i'm gonna pretend i never saw it), no signs of gasket failure, and head's very clean. Needed a little heat to remove the hex-head bolt by the temp sensors, and broke that bolt of course, but things look good. This has been a great way to spend time with my 14-year-old son; he's had his baptism of auto fluids, got coolant in his eye, stripped a bolt or two, explored new dimensions in vulgar language and actually communicated about some of his real issues with me. Caught him grinning triumphantly when the motor came out.

Back to the point: I do believe I'll refresh this motor and put it back in. And give him first turn of the key.

[John_AZ]

+1^

Nice going dad.

J_AZ

[rhett]

Originally Posted by Slam

This has been a great way to spend time with my 14-year-old son; he's had his baptism of auto fluids, got coolant in his eye, stripped a bolt or two, explored new dimensions in vulgar language and actually communicated about some of his real issues with me.

Quality time spent here!! I recall (many many years ago) teaching my father my entire vocabulary of expletives when I was working on a car with him - I think the air turned blue! He was duly surprised...ah, good times!

Good to hear another motor is being saved!

[AKCJ]

First - If you can work on this with your son, yes, it's worth working on. I would assume the epoxy repair was needed to prevent an oil leak only (not structural).

Second - Just curious but in your first post you mentioned fixing the flex damper with "clutch parts"? I'm confused.

Third - I just jacked up my 83 to investigate an oil leak (dang it) and I found oil on the four front bolt heads on the BS cover (number 11 -14 in John's picture). I checked the bolts and they're all tight. There was a smaller amount of oil on the allen head bolt just above those four bolts. Anyone got any ideas on stopping this leak?

[Slam]

AKCJ - you know, I gotta hand it to Divine intervention. I'm going to save the motor, as already it's been instrumental in connecting the two of us. I remember being the kid who took his bike apart on the front lawn and had nobody to help me put it back together. I told myself if I had a son I'd try to avoid that happening to him. Austin's 14 now, a little troubled. We've been working on cars for 11 days straight and he's talking. Even if the rebuilt motor dies a horrible death within a month, I'd still call it a success...

2) rather than spend $1K on a new flex damper I'm dumping the arrangement and using a flywheel, pressure plate and rubber-centred clutch disc in place of it. The disc I have shows no sign of wear at all. A lot of guys with A/T cars have gone this route. For me it's a free repair too. If the disc fails changing it is pretty easy.

3) Classic symptoms of oil cooler/OPRV leak. Looks like oil is coming from the BS housing but closer inspection reveals the leak higher? I'd change out the cooler seals. Also check out the BS nose seal and the O-ring behind it.

[rhett]

Originally Posted by Slam

3) Classic symptoms of oil cooler/OPRV leak. Looks like oil is coming from the BS housing but closer inspection reveals the leak higher? I'd change out the cooler seals. Also check out the BS nose seal and the O-ring behind it.

Not so sure about the oil cooler itself, as the jacket usually leaks coolant and if the oil cooler seals have gone internally then you will be getting oil and water mixing. Evidence of this will be in both the coolant and the sump. However, the OPRV and the Oil pressure sender both use copper crush sealing washers, these can fail and leak - I would check those along with the BS seals as suggested.

There is not a lot of space down there!!

Oil can also run down there from the top of the engine...

[AKCJ]

Thanks guys. I do not want to get in to removing the BS housing.

I'll read up on the OPRV - I've never messed with it before. The oil cooler seemed somewhat clean but I'll take another look. Recently replaced the lower BS seal and o-ring & the end of the BS housing is very clean so that's not it.

Slam - sorry for hijacking your thread!

[Slam]

Rhett, you're right about internal failure and symptoms. My 84 developed a leak at the cooler that turned into a geyser and my thought was that if the crush washers were dead enough to leak I'd better to the whole thing. The most trouble with the job was getting the PS pump et al out of the way.

AKCJ, hijack to your heart's content! We're all friends here (or so it seems most of the time...).

[Slam]

Spare head's at the shop so fledgling mechanic can practice using his grandfather's machinery on it. (I'm sensing a pattern here!) The grandfather did an excellent job on the head out of my 83 about 6 years ago, so I wanted him to do this one. He's retired. So I gave the grandson the spare head. Real head goes in this week, and the cleanup begins.

A word about changing that flex damper - pull the motor! So much easier than gutting the car from underneath.

[John_AZ]

Originally Posted by Slam

2) rather than spend $1K on a new flex damper I'm dumping the arrangement and using a flywheel, pressure plate and rubber-centred clutch disc in place of it.

The disc I have shows no sign of wear at all. A lot of guys with A/T cars have gone this route. For me it's a free repair too. If the disc fails changing it is pretty easy.

Slam,

Can you take a couple of pictures and add a little more information on the AT to standard conversion?

Are you going to use a rubber center clutch disc?

I have a few posts bookmarked. Each has a little information-nothing complete.

Automatic- Switiching from Felxplate to Clutch Style Setup? - Rennlist Discussion Forums

GL
J_AZ

[Slam]

Hi, John - I'm using a rubber-centred disc for the simple reason that I have one with no signs of breakup and very little wear. I also have the matching flywheel and PP, all out of the same car. You know, compared to the disc, that flex damper is positively flimsy. I believe the disc will be fine for this application. I'll take some pics and do a write-up. I have read that thread you posted the link for, and many others.

One thing that concerns me is the flywheel I've got is for an early car, so only one TDC pin. The auto had 3. I'm thinking the DME only cares about TDC so one's enough. What are the other two for?

The other adventure will have to do with the crank sensors. I smashed the original bracket since it seemed the most effective way to get the sensors out. I have a spare early bracket and good sensors to go with it. I'll use these, I think, and I have a used early large-frame starter in the event I get EMF problems.

On another note, I did a neat repair on the lower BS nose. Whoever got in there before me had borked up this area and the shaft was binding. I'd fettled it a little last summer but I figured since I had the motor on a stand I'd fix it properly. I removed the nose, stuffed some rags in the cavity and got a file and some sandpaper. Took me about an hour, checking constantly with a straightedge, to match the front of the BS housing with the block. I came up with a good torque sequence for the 3 nose bolts and that shaft spins very easily and smoothly now. The nose I used came out of an early engine I have here. Another hurdle cleared, as I was worried about that shaft binding. I figured I could tackle it this way as I know sanding the block to get the oil pump squared up is legit.

So far so good!

[Volhv]

While I don't know anything about the automatic 944, I do know that the late cars have 3 set screws, while the early have only one.
I put an early flywheel in my late car, and have not had any issues. The other 2 pickups are only for the sensor that isn't plugged into anything.... the one on the hook at the back of the cam tower.

[Slam]

Ta! That's what I was counting on.

[John_AZ]

Slam,

Before you install the FW, check the depth and appearance of the FW stud.
Depth is 5mm +-0.1mm.

Glad to hear about the BS issue.

I did not know sanding was allowed on the block for the oil pump.

J_AZ