Need Input on PCA!

[M.D. Holloway]

Need Your Input on PCA national and local chapters. I was wondering what your impression was on PCA in general and your local chapter in particular?

Do any of you get involved in the events?

What do you think of PANORAMA?

How about your chapter’s monthly mag?

What would you like to see PCA national and regional chapters change?

[john928]

I'm happy with PCA both National and Regional. PAno is good, especially the Tech section

[macreel]

PCA is fine. Local=Pacific N'West Region. Is quite active, both
socially and on the road & track.

Pano is good; could use more touring articles. Our local 'rag',
The Spiel, is enjoyable and hi-quality.

macreel

[DFWX]

Hello!
Although the 928 is the exact model that turned Porsche from being an obscure, low volume niche marketed small displacement sports car into a company with a reputation of that of a top of the line exotic car manufacturer and the 928 was produced for 17 years without substantive style change, the PCA treats the 928 as though it never existed. Panorama is exactly worthless to a 928 owner. It exists to sell Boxsters.

[john928]

PCA treats the 928 as though it never existed. Panorama is exactly worthless to a 928 owner. It exists to sell Boxsters.

DFWX,
Sorry, but I need to disagree a bit. Different regions treat certain "cars" differently. Not right, but it does happen.
PCA needs to address what it members want. Lets face it, there are way more members who own "911's" and Boxsters right now. Hard to do a balancing act to keep everyone happy. With ~60K members it’s difficult. There are some tech questions for 928 published in Pano. I've seen a few articles over the past few years (one about the GTS and one about modifying a 928). There is also the web site to ask questions (www.pca.org).
I know it’s not perfect, but it’s not "worthless" IMO.

John Veninger
PCA Technical Committee-928

[DFWX]

Hello!
I do not boycott the PCA and am a paid member, plus a member of the 928 club and attend PCA functions as well.
The historic significance of the 928 in Porsche history can not be understated in reality, but it is essentially ignored.
People forget the era.
EPA and DOT standards crashed down on the auto industry in 1972 with GM behind the wheel of this. Ford was shattered and Chysler needed a government bail out just to struggle by selling Japanese powered disposable "K cars". American Motors folded shop.
GM, which has pulled out of racing in the early 60s, saw opportunity to gut the auto industry in political action. Beyond smashing domestic competitors, they smashed the European auto industy even worse.
The horsepower drop between 1971 and 1972 averaged about 40% for most cars, though torque was less affected, and the crash standards resulted in horrid square jutting out bumpers. The European cars, which were designed for small engine power and sleek lines also were devastated. Within a decade, 80% of independent manufacturers in Europe also closed.
Particularly vunerable was Porsche. Figuring if they could not sell air cooled rear engine cars (Corvair), then no one should, GM took after all rear engine designs seeking their ban as supposely dangerous.
While most other rear engine manufacturers also had front engine models in their history, Porsche did not. It only had air cooled, small to medium displacement air cooled rear engines. Porsche was a small, niche market building what many saw as merely custom bodies, spartan VWs with over carberated VW motors with hot cams. In that era 911s were certainly not in the top class supercar league.
The 928 project was a billion dollar do or die gamble of Porsche. With its first stage release of the 924, the 928 was unlike any Porsche ever built. Rather than spartan, the interior was luxurious. It had massive V-8 torque, perfect 50/50 balance, was a cutting edge design in appearance, pioneered early computer management, and defied the seeming demand for jutting out square bumpers - and not only was the only Porsche to earn the company "fastest production car" status year after year, but redefined Porsche as a, if not THE premier production exotic car manufacturer.
Despite the $150,000+ (in today's dollars) price of the 928, I have no doubt Porsche lost money on every one sold due to the enormous costs of tool and die work. But the 928 brought them into the showroom and sold tens upon tens of thousands of 924, 944s and 911s. The 928 added vast value to the trademark and dealership value of the world and license of "Porsche".
The threat of putting twin turbos on the 928 - certainly possible given the 944 met EPA ppm emissions - lead GM to throw in the towel to avoid the massive retooling costs and then overall radical reaction of the insurance industry, environmentalists and such if 500 horsepower cars were coming off assembly lines in competition in the mid 80s. Giving in to the 928 turbo threat, GM released the stylish but sluggish Fiero. The battle was over and the 928 had saved the 911 for being outlawed for safety issues and public perceptions of safety.
It is questionable if Porsche could have survived. let alone become the super car company, against the GM drive at the rear engine 911 without the 928 counter attack by Porsche and the 924/944 little sisters coming from the project. It is certain that it was the 928 that defined - worldwide - Porsche as a super car for the first time.
Name any other Porsche that was "Fastest production car in the USA" and "in the world". And for how many years was that for the 928?
For the 911, the count is easy - ZERO.
I am often stunned at the PCA gunning down Porsche that are not of some rear engine ala 911 concept. For example, the Cayenne is a stunning, awesome SUV - 450 horsepower and a price notably lower than other turbo Porsche with far more features and production costs. It also cost Porsche hundreds of millions of dollars to design, tool and die for.
The 928, year after year, was "THE FASTEST", despite being a mid-steel body, 4 place luxury cruiser. Its production run as a semi-exotic car spanned 18 years using virtually the identical body, chassis and power train - unequalled by any other manufacturer - ever.
Porsche executives should be required to pass a 1977 Porsche 928 each day and give a nod of respect as they own their jobs to the 928.
To this day, the 928 is an awesome car. The last models at 360 horsepower and 3600 pounds does not also recognize the incredibly long horsepower and moreso torque curve.
Back to the wall, a tiny German company scrounged up a billion dollars in the ultimate gamble - did a 100% shift in design and definition of what a Porsche is from the ground up - and conquered the automotive world.
Why don't I ever read that in any PCA or Porsche material? Why not boast of the historic genious and extreme boldness of the Porsche company in the 928, rather than "we added 2.1% horsepower and reduced weight 1.7%" to the 911 as the Porsche historic genious?
Where does Porsche turn when the Boxster conservative yuppies tire of the identical model year after year that does not really have much in uniqueness, boldness or creativity remaining in them?
The answer, of course, is the endless 911. Or is it?

Porsche and the PCA should NOT be pleased to see that their super car that smashed Contach and Lotus now sells used for 1/5th to 1/15th their counterparts. Rather than always presenting the 928 as an history superstar - therefore supporting the concept that all top of the line Porsches of any vintage are and will always be superstars, instead Porsche and the PCA treat the Porsche 928 in the manner than Ford treats the Edsel.

Disregard for the 928 and the vast historic significance of it - and boldness, creativity and "take on the whole world" attitude behind the project is long term marketing stupidly by the PCA and Prosche.
I just saw a supercharged, super clean, LATE MODEL 928 S-4 that could not $10,000, were a stock Contact in average condition brought $85,000. 928s in good, running condition, are being gutted for a transmission now.
Somehow, supporting the reality that Porsche mega-costly super cars lose their resale value 10 times faster than any other manufacturer seems particularly tactically stupid - to be candid of it. And foolish.
The 928 is still a stunning automobile. I take my 928 with a mid customized body to a local drag strip now and then to watch the races. It draws crowds standing still. Heads turn with the 32V 4 cammer fires up, and there will be a "holy s...t!" when I pop the hood on what is the most awesome and gorgeous Porsche motor ever built.
It would seem prudent for the PCA and Porsche to revere the 928, for profit and preservation of Porsche in the long run, if for no other reason.
For a decade and a half, the 928 was the top dollar Porsche and reaching technically into 1995 - a decade ago. What did those buyers get in the long run from Porsche?
An 18 year runs - 1977 to 1995 - and try to find an article in Panorama about the 928? All found, if any comment, is that the 928 was "a bit on the heavy side" and "outdated".

Truly, what does PCA or Porsche offer for 928 owners other than the advise to buy a 911?
Porsche faced oblivion as a minor company for its singular focus upon the 911 series. Fortunately, they were wise enough and brave enough for the 928 gamble. If current only 911s forever retro-thinking continues indefinitely, Porsche will face a surprise downturn in the future with no bailout option other than being bought out - as happened to Lambro after being whipped up by the 928 - even when the 928 was a decade old design.
I suspect, though, one reason the 928 is so disregarded is due to its enduring potency as a performance car, particularly the latter models in contrast to any under $100K new Porsche of any model now offered.
The horsepower and torque curves of the 928 S4 and GTS series is stunning and relatively equated to over 400 horsepower and 500 pounds torque to other V-8s to this day, and vastly moreso in contrast to any 400 horsepower 6 cylinder as a torque issue.

A person can have an immaculate, particularly low mileage early 90s 928GTS with a legal Borla exhaust and adjustment to the air fuel mixture within legal range, and have a 2+2 GT car with a .31 coefficent drag, perfect 50/50 weight balance, that will do the quarter mile in 11.5 seconds with a real top speed of 190 mph - out drag race a new King of the Hill Vette and out corner a Lotus - and have that all for under $30K. Maybe that is why PCA and Porsche wish these old 928 scraped.
It is unfortunate that the PCA and Porsche do not take the position that their top of the line cars are always of top of the line interests and top of the line valve.
I do not boycott Porsche or the PCA, but am stunned by the foolish attitude towards the 928. It seems long term marketing slow suicide and is the strongest proof that Lambo, Ferrari and Lotus all are superior given subsequent interests, support and resale value.
The greatest single mistake was for Porsche and the PCA to deny that the Cayenne was of 928 legacy. Had this been done, it would have given a zillion dollars in memoribilia value of the vastly famous 928, which for over a decade was the poster car on nearly every law, medical and MBA college student in the country as why there were pursuing their high income educations.

Instead, Porsche and the PCA denied it was of 928 legacy (and therefore no legacy at all), and then PCA picked at it. Bad name for the SUV. Too heavy. Not Porsche like. Bad decision to make a deal for a like model with VW, etc. etc. - all which added up to "it ain't a 911 so it ain't really a Porsche."

Porsche is what it is because of the 928. Without the 928, it likely that Porsche would have been bought out by GM as a bankrupted company circa 1985.
Mark

[DFWX]

Not to go on too much of this, remember the era of the 928. It was the muscle car era. 500 horsepower motors in taxi cab chassis. Even the Europeans were increasingly going big cubic inches. Yet it was Porsche, after the 1972 DOT and EPA crash that produced the true "muscle car" in the 928. A rumbling V-8, but also extremely good in corners and luxurious too.
Watch TV ads and see where America is heading on performance cars. It is a return to the muscle car. The new Mustang a huge hit. Chrysler and even Cadillac - V-8 muscle.
The "sports car" market ebbs and flows in the USA.
More people own 911 and Boxsters, no issue of that.
Lastly, the PCA is the ONLY organization that has never responded to a tech question - just a comment of that...
The Dallas Area has LOTS of Boxsters and a fair number of 911s. Yet it is a volitile image trend of professionals who want a conservative appearance with an upward mobility appearing name. I suspect most Boxsters buyers lease or finance.
The danger is if that niche group who have little interest in actual performance, but rather a conservative appearance upper end semi-exoic car they can afford by monthly payments (meaning not a Lambo, Ferrari or top BMW) decide the Boxster is out of fashion. Sales could plummet quickly. What is the Porsche back up plan?
The USA auto industry is increasing offering and selling front V-8 rear wheel muscle cars. Two doors. Four doors. Even sedans. And most are selling fast at inflated prices.
Does Porsche have a response? Or is it agreeable to only being an alternative to mid and rear engined Japanese imports? I see Porsche as getting on dangerous ground. Bad timing on the SUV - just bad luck. But a sound idea.
Exactly how difficult would it be, having the tooling for both the Cayenne and the 928, would it be for Porsche to put that 450 horsepower V-8 of the Cayenne into a front engine 2+2 at 3,300 pounds, rather than a 2 1/2 ton SUV? It would require little design, tool and die work to produce.

[epbrown]

Actually, my take on it as viewed from the Windy City Region is that if 928 owners contributed articles, they'd get published. In short, we're under-represented because fewer of us step forward. Our regional newsletter post ads begging for content on any type of Porsche; it's the 911 and Boxster owners that respond.

Emanuel

[M.D. Holloway]

DFWX - as the managing editor for PCA's Maverick region SLIPSTREAM rag your above post on the 928 is really good. It has passion and with a few very minor edits would make for a great article which I would like to publish! Please e-mail me your thoughts to mhollowa@nch.com. I would like to get it into the Sept or Oct issue.

BTW - there will be a third annual "Shark Dinner" for 928's in Sept (but not exclusively) - check out the maverick PCA website for details.

[DFWX]

Rambling on...
Do I think a new version "928" should be released?
No, the 928 has been effectively killed as a status car and could not bring the price.
I do believe it a terrible mistake for Porsche to not rebody the 928 in 1988 or with the release of the 5.4 360 hp 32 valve, 4 cam motor. They merely would have needed flatten the roofline a bit, more fender flair and rise to give a bit of hood drop down look with a tad of a slant nose, added rocker panels as a ground effects appearance, a kicked up tail with different wing, and make the interior less lavish and more techno.

I have no idea how what Porsche should do. With even Porsche enthusiasts going after the Cayenne, Porsche is getting into a corner in terms of design and marketing versitility - which time to time in the auto industry now means survivability. Issuing all-new models is extremely risky given the billon dollar set up costs...
Not given the Cayenne a "9" number was a mistake. Calling the Boxster an Boxster made sense as it focused upon a recognized engine design (Boxer motor).
It would have been wiser marketing to call it something such as the
957 SV (not being trapped by the "SUV" perception), with a "Cayenne" edition, thus allowing a new name for the edition if Cayenne did not work and offering more variety within the same model by having different model names, while the same number (such as 911 widebody, 911 turbo, 911 GT1 etc.) Thus 957 SV, 957 SVT (turbo) and other edition names following as well.
Not many people every heard of a Cayenne and nothing identifies that to Porsche.
Porsche could drop the Cayenne to the ground with a 2+2 GT body in the 3,400 pound range with 450 turbo horsepower for an all wheel drive top end performance road car and numbers that go up against the other 4 wheel drive exotics. Ot they wisely could just bump it up to 5.0 for 500+ hp in an all wheel drive performance road GT.
Would you want a 520 horsepower alloy V-8 Porsche 2+2 all wheel drive
195 mph GT? Bet you would. Even if the motor is up front.
I don't think Porsche made a 948, did it? 9 - like most model Porsche, 4 - for 4 wheel drive and 8 for cylinders. Or Porsche could go bolder and go V-12 with half again the Cayenne motor and again go for "FASTEST PRODUCTION CAR SOLD IN THE USA" with other than a half million dollar car that actually is semi-mass produced.
The 928 gave Porsche parity with Ferrari, Lambo, Aston Martin for a few years and in a model that was not just for the super rich. If I were Porsche, I would make that the goal again. For 3/5th the price of a Ferrari, you could buy a Porsche that is faster and is a 2+2 fastback.

[M.D. Holloway]

dude - can you take a breath for a minute? You had me at hello!

[DFWX]

OK, more...
Image sells cars. "GT" and "Z" are two well recognized designations in the USA. All "Z" cars are 2+2 fastbacks. Few actually know what GT stands for, other than something about performance rather than grand touring.
Porsche could declare it is entering the "Z" car market, dropping its Cayenne low and putting on a highly stylized, somewhat more conservative late 90s GT1 look. A 3,200 to 3,400 pound 2+2 fastback
with 450 horsepower and V- torque, though it would be wise to go at least 5.0 to outdo the Americans and then over 500 horsepower along with all wheel drive (though maybe that an optional model).
Thus, it would be the 948 GTZ.
Porsche could claim, accurately, that it was the fastest "Z" car in world history and faster than such as Nissan turbo Zs, the latest non-turbo Ferrari and essentially everything else such as BMW, Viper, Vette on the road.
Where it can not sell its Cayenne for $100K, that would sell in the over $125K but under $150K market, for which it would have techno and stylized interior, but not leather, and would carry a couple extra hundred pounds of steel in the mid-section for cost savings and weight.
Of course, Porsche could offer aftermarket kits of all kinds for this.

[DFWX]

Not just a 500+ horsepower 2+2, but all wheel drive. Does any one question that all wheel drive is the future of exotic performance cars?

[DFWX]

Ha...
Porsche could then put its Boxster motor upfront, have a bit more radically stylized, more cramped 2+2 in turbo and non turbo form, also a "Z" car, and a "9" designation, all wheel drive, and repeat its glory years - having the 911, 911 Turbo, Carrera series, GT rear engined series, a thundering 2+2 all wheel front engine, and 6 cylinder front engine normal and turbo 4 wheel drive - without huge tooling costs as they have the Cayenne to work off of.
THAT exact formula took Porsche to the top of the charts and adding the 4 wheel drive to a BIG motor in the line up, with baby sisters to it, gives the full and diverse showroom dealers like. People come to look at the expensive ones, but most drive away in a neat little sister. With that diverse of showroom, they could probably rename and a bit reskin the Cayenne as a 5.0 and absolutely not call it a Cayenne and sell those too.

OK, finally, I will stop!

[epbrown]

Your rant doesn't make a lot of sense, and ignores some Porsche facts. For instance, the 928 in no way shape or form saved Porsche from being bought out. in the 80s, the 944 pulled their fat from the fire, and in the 90s the next generation entry level model did it - the Boxster.

Also, Porsche stopped doing number designations in the 80s, preferring to go with names. The 911 was renamed the Carrera in '84 - people just continued to call it the 911. The Boxster was the first all-new model since that choice to come out, and that's why it's known by it's name rather than type designation - they didn't bother coming up with a name for the 944 (and it's derivative the 968) or the 928 because they were on the road to discontinuation already. Since then it's been Carrera, Cayman, Cayenne - I don't think they'd though of the alliteration thing when they named the Boxster.

Lastly, my personal feeling is that the 928 should have been positioned as a limited-edition flag-ship model once the company realized they weren't replacing the 911. As you said, the flagship cars get people into the dealerships, where they buy the models they can actually afford and leave the supercars for the heavy hitters, like the Carrera GT does today.

This also lets them justify continuing to develop the line as a research platform, letting technology trickle down to the other models over time. This was already happening with the 928 - it's air intake and Bosche DME injection worked it's way into the 3.2L Carrera, it's Weissach axle was the basis for the 993 suspension and continues with the 996/997 cars, and the 4-valve technology used in the current flat six was pioneered in the 928 - it's engine design was also copied in miniature for the 944 and 968 throughout it's life.

Anyway, the smart thing would have been to limit production of the 928, keeping demand up while helping to defray the development costs of technology going into the lesser models. Selling 2000 cars a year is a disaster - unless you only planned to sell 2000 . It also would have kept prices up, which (perhaps perversely) would have increased demand; more high-end car buyers would have bought them if they hadn't made such poor investments. The Ferrari supercar sales model is to build one fewer than they think they can sell - and it works.

Emanuel

[DFWX]

In my view, the 928 sold the 944 just as the Carrera sells Boxsters. Maybe we are in agreement with that, and I fully agree that even at their price, the 928 was a money loser itself in terms of automobile sales and could not be anything but one.
My view is that it was the combination of the 928 and 944 Turbo that caused GM to throw in the towel for its own purposes in that Porsche could have opened a hornet's nest across the auto industry. In that era, there were both open and closed negotiations over horsepower limits, performance limits, design limits etc in the early DOT and EPA regs years and GM was the heavyweight to the extreme and Porsche virtually non-existent directly, but of indirect huge nusance potential.
The reality that a small company like Porsche raising the massive, massive sum to tool virtually from ground up is an amazing feat - and they pulled it off (rather than folding with an Edsel result).
The 928 also radically departed from all previous Porsche and not merely in being front engined, but extremely (even excessively) lavish for the era.
What your comment disregards is the political-legal DOT/EPA battle going on at the time.
Ferrari is its own world. Generally, supercars are for the purpose of selling lesser models on the reputation of the brand. The 944 did not appear as a supercar in movies or as a supercar on posters. The 944 did not bring Porsche the supercar imagine, the 928 did.
The 928 directly was a money loser. But it was a huge success in the value of the Porsche name, Porsche logo merchandising and the value of a Porsche dealership license. As for income from car sales, it was the 944. But profits for a manufacturer are not limited to car sales.
The 928 also gave Porsche a diverse line up, more than it has now.
I believe Porsche very deliberately limited the 928 production as they certainly lost money on each one sold.
Do you believe Porsche actually made $$ on the GT1 even at $500,000 each? It is impossible.
Porsche is an expensive car and people buy the logo on the car, not just the value of the machine.
Somehow, I think we agree on principle, though possibly not historical significance.
What supercar did Porsche make - where supercar is defined by public perception - prior to the 928?
Of all Porsche in the used market, my view is that the unquestioned best deal for performance, support, parts and looks are the Turbo 944. But, just as the 928 sold 944, so did the 944 turbo sell 944 (non-turbo).

Actually, this began with a rant of lack of support for recognition of the 928, which I contend was a watershed success for Porsche in terms of general public perception of what Porsche is to this day. An older guy, I am a bit familar with the political/legal muscle of the early 70s. GM devastated the car industry, though people blame environmentalists, insurance companis and safety freaks.
Prior to the 928 (or I suppose the 924 early release), Porsche was a small niche market of German sports car and little more to the public. What was the Porsche world recognized supercar prior to the 928?

Thanks for your thoughts.

[john928]

DFWX,

I love your passion for the 928

[epbrown]

DFWX, how can someone not take the DOT/EPA issues of the time into account? They were the reason for the 928 coming into existence! Porsche was worried that the 911 wouldn't meet emissions and safety standards and put the 928 into development, remember.

With regard to Porsche limiting production, bull-dinky. The car was built to replace the 911 as their bread-and-butter model - they wanted to sell as many as they could. As early as 1980, Porsche decided on a niche role for the 928 and kick-started development of the 911 again in earnest when they saw the 928 wouldn't sell well enough.

As far as the 928 being the flagship model and standard bearer, that can be argued. The 911 is what most people think of when they think Porsche, and the 911 turbo - as the ultimate 911 - is always seen as the ultimate Porsche - the "Porsche world supercar." The 928 showed up in Scarface and Risky Business, but that's in no small part due to the 911 turbo not being sold in the US at the time.

The 928's problems started from within - fact is, the Porsche family never liked it. They wanted the 911 to remain the top model since it was designed by Butzi and an evolution of the founder's 356 design. Making the 928 the top model turned representation of the Porsche name over to hired guns, and they weren't big on that idea. It's amazing the 928 is as good as it is, considering it's the red-headed step-child of the family. I find it amusing that the 996 is essentially a rear-engined 928 - a 4-valve/cylinder watercooled GT with Weissach suspension. It's taken the 911 years to get to were the 928 started, and more years to catch up. Think what amazing cars they'd be making now if the 928 had replaced the 911 back in the 70s.

-E

[928ram]

Any 928 lover (or Porsche lover in general) should get their hands on a copy of Project 928; the book covers not only the development of the 928 with lots of cool pics, but also the general tone of the industry and Porsche at the time of the 928's development and introduction.

As for the PCA, I enjoyed membership with the Oregon Region for several years as a 928 owner. Sure, there were a few air-cooled owners who "seemed" snobby toward the water-pumpers; but I didn't join for their approval and I suspect it was more ignorance toward the model or dis-interest on their part. Some folks are just single model enthusiasts, others are single brand, others are anything with wheels.

The PCA is like any club, you get out of it what you put in. I left PCA membership simple because I wasn't finding the time to attend and enjoy membership, probable going to join the fray again in my new local even tho the local region looks small.

[Rixter]

time for me to add my $9.28 to this topic

I am constantly amazed at how little is mentioned about the 928 outside of forums... Excellence, 911 & Porsche World etc should just be called 911 & Boxster magazines... maybe 2-3 times a year I see an article that only rehashes the same generic bs
lets be honest .. the 928 would have easily rivaled sales of the 911 if it weren't for the price
a 77-78 928 cost $28-30, that was 3 TIMES the price of the best V8 vehicles in the US, a 95GTS was $100k+

that being said, the 928 was pure genius in that the innovations it brought to the auto world continue today:
Weissach transaxle
passive rear wheel toe-in
neoprene bumper covers
tilt wheel w/moving cluster to ensure sight of gauges
the 1990 S4 was the 1st car with STANDARD dual airbags

and you can basically thank Audi for the 924/944/968 series.. but I'll save that for another day