Another Small Block Conversion Argument

[rich]

Well, here's a Cayenne engine. Notice how the distance of the pulley is about the same in appearance in height to the top of the cylinder heads as the 928. The 928 has a tall intake the Cayenne doesn't. The 928 pan is lower profile but the intake is taller.

[SolReaver]

Hey folks, Seeing as this is another engine swap thread. I would like to toss forth my worthless opinion.

Sacrilege! Blasphemy! Sinners Repent!

ANY engine swap is a hassle. You are better off putting the original mill in there 9 out of 10 times. On a 928...No. 928s have enough problems all stock. Dumb Idea. The only people that will tell you it is a good idea are A) trying to sell you a kit which you can pretend will all work B) Trying to rationalize their own insanity, or C) Are far too enamored with the so and so v8 engine that delivers giganto horsepower.

Never mind that the drive train will not take the added horsepower.
Never mind that the balance and handling will suffer.
Never mind that the resale value will plummet.
Never mind that "all the little things" may not work

Fine, whatever....IF you are going to do it..Find a dead one or pick up the Aborted and abandoned swap projects that come up from time to time. You can pick em up for a song "some assembly required". Just don't destroy a running classic for your version of perfection.

OH, and just TRY to smog the thing in California. Goood Freakin luck!

[JK McDonald]

Hey SolReaver, I couldn’t agree with you more when it comes to trying to maintain every 928 as unmolested as possible. As John Wayne used to say after a couple of belts - “Here’s to the Pure Life”.

But then again, I have to admit that Cayenne engine would certainly look impressive under the hood.

Michael

[ubercooper]

Never mind that the drive train will not take the added horsepower.
Never mind that the balance and handling will suffer.
Never mind that the resale value will plummet.
Never mind that "all the little things" may not work

OH, and just TRY to smog the thing in California. Goood Freakin luck!

1. Yes it will, I am running 490wrtq and I have had no issues whatsoever

2. No it wont, it actually makes it 48-52% so it will just have most of the weight in the rear so you will gain traction. Also by swapping to a LSX motor you will loose almost 200lbs from the weight of this pig

3. resale with these things is appalling as it is and none of these cars are worth more than $15k anyway...

4. If its a track car than you dont need little things, they slow you down.

5. 49/50 states are not California and dont have absurd smog tests.


not saying that I would want it on a daily driver, but if you want to go fast and not worry about oiling issues or 7ft timing belts, and have a lighter car... than this is the best option.

if its not your car or money why do you care.

[SolReaver]

Ubercooper: OK, so it works for you. As a track car. and you admit there is no way in hell that you could ever pass the smog in CA? I appreciate you underscoring my point. Thank you. As a TRACK car, yea, OK, I can see that. Track cars are usually one way conversions and "utilitarian" by nature.

The little things are kinda what the 928 is all about, it is a Luxury sports car. Admitted it makes a Dynamite track car once you lighten all the little things and here is where our visions and expectations for the vehicle differ. If you don't care about the little things like working gauges, air conditioning, and gut the interior, yea, I guess.... But it isn't really a Porsche 928 anymore...is it? It is a track car and that is a proud beastie in it's own right.

Please tell me that you started with a hopelessly Dead OB or something. I will sleep better at night.

Gotta disagree with the #3 as I work on a few 928's that are well above that range. Further if you want a NICE one it will cost you. Projects are everywhere.

Oiling issues? Timing Belt? Not really a problem with competent PM. Learn the car you got. Learn to love the car you got. love the car you have.


McDonald: yea, would LOOK nice,,,So would a Jag v12. Getting one to fit and work....sheesh.

Here's to clean living.

[fb111]

Oiling issues? Timing Belt? Not really a problem with competent PM. Learn the car you got. Learn to love the car you got. love the car you have.

Where have you been? These engines fill the cylinder heads with oil and spin 2 and 6 rod bearings. Its being discussed at length on rennlist and the cause has not been isolated to help determine the solution.

[ubercooper]

Yes the 928 that was used for my track car had a blown motor..

Of course it is still a 928, it has the body, transaxle, and suspension of one... just a bigger and more powerful heart.

[SolReaver]

Timing belt: Par for the course. Spun bearings..oil in cylinders...whatever these are old cars..they break. Get over it. People discuss Alien UFO sightings over the internet. It doesn't mean that space men are going to land in my back yard.

OK, pumping an unorthodox heart into an OB and making it a track car. Whatever floats your boat. Driving around every once in a while at a track, nah, that's not really a car. Driving back and forth to work. That's a car. Still not my idea of a good time.

Offhand...what kind of city mileage does the garage queen get? I notice engine transplant folks hardly ever want to talk about such things. They usually point out what admirable hwy mileage they get going downhill with a stiff breeze behind them and a sail.

[ubercooper]

OK, pumping an unorthodox heart into an OB and making it a track car. Whatever floats your boat. Driving around every once in a while at a track, nah, that's not really a car. Driving back and forth to work. That's a car. Still not my idea of a good time.

wrong, thats the difference between a street car and a race car... if it has 4 wheels, 2 seats, and a steering wheel...its a car.

Mileage? Maybe 25 on the highway, the car is very light and the 2.2 rear keeps the revs low... On a track? Well its a 6.7L small block with a nasty cam so probably 2-5 would be my guess. I could honestly care less about the gas, I dont mind hearing my money explode cause it sounds fantastic.

[fb111]

OK, pumping an unorthodox heart into an OB and making it a track car. Whatever floats your boat. Driving around every once in a while at a track, nah, that's not really a car. Driving back and forth to work. That's a car. Still not my idea of a good time.

I guess that's why they call it auto racing.

[Landseer]

Really doesn't have much in common with the Porsche 928 hobby.

[SolReaver]

OK, so the city mileage is...abysmal. Not surprising. Physics can be a bee yatch like that. Can't say that my v 12 is exceptionally thrifty in this area either. Especially when you drive with a little Gusto. to be honest with you with the current price of fuel I don't see why people aren't resurrecting OB's with "sensible engines" that get reasonable mileage and are low maintenance. Sure, you won't be able to tear up the road, but the car just looks soo sexy! Further, when you are just driving along...who knows what's under the hood. To be honest, most drivers don't even care. It would be nice to see more OB's converted to moving form. (links in nicely with the hobby thing..eh, landseer?) and I would be open to viable solutions that got them out and visible as MOVING cars that the general public sees. With the price of fuel what it is and (shudder) what it may be, a gas guzzling monster just doesn't make sense.

I like the Electric 928...seems a bit more "elegant" than stuffing a small block. My difficulty with the whole transplant mentality is that (generally, and I am not pointing fingers here) it all tends to be "bigger is better" and "small block" (good engine,not denying it). I suggest we think out of this box and consider OTHER options. Not for track cars. For REAL cars. Vehicles you can drive on a daily basis and live with.

"auto racing" he he..Good one fb111

[Herr-Kuhn]

I'm still waiting to see the itemezed list of costs to make a 600+ HP small block conversion. I still stand by the fact that doing that conversion while retaining all accessories, plus fuel injection and refinement of the car is well past $20,000, likely closer to $26,000. Everybody quotes a junk yard engine...those are not 600 HP engines, or even 500 HP engines. Even a 450 HP small block with injection will run you well past $8,000.

[rich]

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

I'm still waiting to see the itemezed list of costs to make a 600+ HP small block conversion. I still stand by the fact that doing that conversion while retaining all accessories, plus fuel injection and refinement of the car is well past $20,000, likely closer to $26,000. Everybody quotes a junk yard engine...those are not 600 HP engines, or even 500 HP engines. Even a 450 HP small block with injection will run you well past $8,000.

I agree. Your not going to junk yard 650HP. Here's a link to 505HP. Are you sittin down? $ 14.499.99 before shipping, adaptor plate, accessory brackets, unobtainium clutch part from an old chevy...etc.

http://www.jegs.com/i/GM-Performance/809/19244098/10002/-1?parentProductId=1503674

[Normy]

Originally Posted by rich

I agree. Your not going to junk yard 650HP. Here's a link to 505HP. Are you sittin down? $ 14.499.99 before shipping, adaptor plate, accessory brackets, unobtainium clutch part from an old chevy...etc.

GM Performance 19244098 GM Performance Parts LS7 427 CID 505HP

That was my research as well. You can install about 300 hp via a standard 350 with headers and a Holly 4V for about $8000. If your timing belt skips a tooth and you bend a bunch of valves...a $500 chevy engine with about 200 hp on a good day, along with the Renegade Hybrids kit + that HARD TO FIND bellhousing part + a few odds and ends winds up with your 928 on the road for a total cost of $2500. That's decent while you rebuild your M28 engine. You CAN put the Renegade Hybrid parts on eBay, sell the chevy van engine, and probably pretty much recoup your investment when you put the rebuilt M28 back in the car. The whole time you are driving your 928 instead of watching it get dusty in your garage. That's the best use of a chevy conversion-

[rich]

Or.... for $ 8000.00 you could build a nice 928 long block and have it sitting in the corner of the garage as a spare bullet in the chamber in the event you ever have the skip to ma loo belt issue.

Why would you burn through $ 8000.00 and months of screwing around with a greasy junk yard engine only to spend thousands of more dollars to repair your 928 engine. Then have to undo and dispose of all the money time and parts and months of work spent? Sorry Normy, I doubt you would do that. I'm callin BS.

[SolReaver]

Normy: engine transplants IMHO are not that simple. They don't pop in and out like legos. My M28 is gone...Lets pop a Small block in there just for now. No. Conversions, like track cars are a one way mission. They may be brave souls...but, they are NOT coming back. The parts are pretty much only valuable to others along the same path. 928 mills are actually less expensive to purchase than you might think and in your scenario a replacement engine M20 (or thereabouts) would be a better temporary solution. OR...Rebuild the old one.

Rich and Herr Kunn: You will not see the itemized receipt thing. Just not gonna happen. You are also very correct that a GOOD small block will cost you a reasonable amount of money. The prices skyrocket past 450 or so horse power. Demand is very high for these engines because...they fit ooodles of really cool cars!

Besides, your drive train won't TAKE over 400 (if that ) and so it is a moot point.

And Guys....the parts aren't "hard to find" they are impossible. These "kits" are just for suckers. How about I sell you a whole bunch of parts that you can pretend will fit? Well, it will be missing a crucial bell housing off of a right hand drive Yugo sold only in Iceland to the mail service between the years 84 and 86. You are sure to find it in a junkyard somewhere....

But seriously...I am sure renegade will give you MOST of the parts you need.

Engine swapping on this scale requires machining / Fabrication skill and a good deal of ingenuity. Don't expect anyone to deliver a turnkey solution. IF they say it is easy....they are lying.

No...It doesn't make sense AT ALL .. Chevy v8 swaps made sense on Jags during the 80s and into the 90s, when V12 Jags dropped their mills and were hideously expensive to replace. Even Jag people think it is stupid nowadays. Well...unless they own a conversion....which they have been trying to sell for ages.

For the time and money....NAH! If you want a small block...fix up a Camaro, Firebird, Impala, Monte Carlo, Chevelle, etc.... And Where ARE all these 928 conversions I keep hearing about? I have seen Pics, But i don't see them driving around on the streets....hmmmmm...funny that....

[ubercooper]

You will not see the itemized receipt thing

nobody cares enough to explicate their financial decisions for their car in itemized form because you think its more thrifty to keep the stock motor

Heres the deal with cost:

my car cost $9000 with a 460hp SBC already in there

that blew up because the retard who built it did a craptastic job. I invested $3000 in parts to that motor and now I have a 600hp monster... which for another $1000 or so, can go up to 900hp.

You dont buy a crate engine, that is a waste of money... you build a better one yourself.

you cannot bolt on a blower to a 928 motor and make this sort of power without upgrading everything else...then having it spin a bearing due to design flaw, the quest to make a 928 engine as reliable and powerful as an SBC will cost more than the conversion and engine upgrades.


as for driving on the streets.. who gives a fuuck. You will ruin your car with speedbumps, potholes, old people who dont see red lights, texting teenagers, cops, or the guy who runs a stop sign and mangles your pride and joy.

I keep my car in a controlled environment on the track because if it gets killed, I want to be the one that kills it... plus it wont get traction under the sped limit

If you want to spend $9000 on a blower, accusump, pistons, crank, and all that **** for a stock 928 motor feel free....its your money and Im not going to get pissed or try and argue a point if you spend it the way you want.

END

[rich]

Originally Posted by ubercooper

nobody cares enough to explicate their financial decisions for their car in itemized form because you think its more thrifty to keep the stock motor

Heres the deal with cost:

my car cost $9000 with a 460hp SBC already in there

that blew up because the retard who built it did a craptastic job. I invested $3000 in parts to that motor and now I have a 600hp monster... which for another $1000 or so, can go up to 900hp.

You dont buy a crate engine, that is a waste of money... you build a better one yourself.

you cannot bolt on a blower to a 928 motor and make this sort of power without upgrading everything else...then having it spin a bearing due to design flaw, the quest to make a 928 engine as reliable and powerful as an SBC will cost more than the conversion and engine upgrades.


as for driving on the streets.. who gives a fuuck. You will ruin your car with speedbumps, potholes, old people who dont see red lights, texting teenagers, cops, or the guy who runs a stop sign and mangles your pride and joy.

I keep my car in a controlled environment on the track because if it gets killed, I want to be the one that kills it... plus it wont get traction under the sped limit

If you want to spend $9000 on a blower, accusump, pistons, crank, and all that **** for a stock 928 motor feel free....its your money and Im not going to get pissed or try and argue a point if you spend it the way you want.

END

Cool, got dyno sheets ? or... So you drive on the track? What class? Where? How does the car place?

[Landseer]

Complete chevy track car, $12,000?

So, its like buying and sorting 2 928's.