Another Small Block Conversion Argument

[not_hans_stuck]

Originally Posted by Herr-Kuhn

We keep hearing how much lighter and more powerful these engines are but yet nobody brings real weights, power numbers and all costs to the table for discussion. A late model Camaro engine is 275-300 HP and turns like 6,000 RPM. Those are the cheap engines. If you want a 400 HP NA motor, it is more money and if you want a 600 HP NA motor it's a lot of money. You can't just point to a Jeg's catalog and say a 600 HP SB is $8000 when it has no manifolds or fuel management whatsoever. Then there is the issue of keeping all the accessories...if you aren't doing that then it's not an apples to apples comparison. Don't assume you can pull a 928 engine out and weight it with the AC and then put a SB in without AC and compare the weight. Apples to apples.

I never doubted the ability to have a Chevy powered 928 that is fast...what I doubt is that it can be built for "way less money" than it is to build or modify the 32V V8 that the S4 and newer cars came with. I also doubt it is significantly lighter.

I want an objective, side by side comparison of the costs associated with putting a 600 HP chevy into the 928's chassis (pick your poison, NA or boosted). Parts and labour!

I'm prepared to disclose all prices associated with making 600 HP on the 32V engine. I can show you invoices on what it costs. Until someone gives me an itemized list of parts and the labour time to pull it off I can only say that the comments floating around the internet and on these conversion websites is undocumented. Until the weight reduction, power numbers and the costs are documented it's nothing but hearsay.

I live in a facts based world and I really don't think that it's much to ask for a side by side comparison on the inputs and results.

What does a dressed 928 engine weigh? I have a scale that will weigh up to 600 lbs. I'll put my LSx on it after I pick it up.

toy-jet.com says a dressed LS1 weighs 434 lbs. including the AC compressor and adapter plate - and other stuff.

For my part, I believe an LS-1 powered 928 is more true to the original 928 mantra and driving experience than a turbo-charged 928. The 928 was always an all-motor car. They never offered a turbo version. Another way of saying that is that replacing the Porsche motor with an LS1 doesn't fundamentally change the character of the car. Turbocharging it does. It sounds different, the power comes on differently, etc. LS1's still make the same lululululu sound a 928 does. It just got more beans. Nobody would ever know unless you open the hood.

H

[rich]

LS=small block. M28=big block.

The guys at Renegade are building little block chevy's anyone can build a chevy.

[Danglerb]

I thought a Ford mod motor conversion might be interesting, but what I see missing from all the talk about converting a 928 is the long list of happy owners of this inexpensive easy to do conversion. Its freaking expensive to rebuild a 928 engine properly, so its not that hard to find a 928 with a bad motor cheap, so where are the conversions?

I talk to lots considering it.

Many into the project.

A few with completed cars, but I know personally of TWO still happy after a couple years.

I also think you are completely wrong about the character of the car not changing, and I would say that holds true for the boosted cars as well. You are taking one of the best handling cars in the world and making it into a mediocre twitchy drag car.

[not_hans_stuck]

Originally Posted by Danglerb

I thought a Ford mod motor conversion might be interesting, but what I see missing from all the talk about converting a 928 is the long list of happy owners of this inexpensive easy to do conversion. Its freaking expensive to rebuild a 928 engine properly, so its not that hard to find a 928 with a bad motor cheap, so where are the conversions?

I talk to lots considering it.

Many into the project.

A few with completed cars, but I know personally of TWO still happy after a couple years.

I also think you are completely wrong about the character of the car not changing, and I would say that holds true for the boosted cars as well. You are taking one of the best handling cars in the world and making it into a mediocre twitchy drag car.

I don't understand what would make it twitchy. Did you read the part about a fully dressed LSx weighing 430 lbs? That's 50 less than a Porsche Flat-6. I can't believe the 928 V8 weighs less than the flat 6. I could be wrong. Has anyone weighed it? In fact, if I do a little thought experiment comparing the LSx to the 928 engine (what's the designation for that thing, anyway) here's what I get: 928 employs case halves vs the LSx block. The case halves are likely lighter. The heads on a 928 are gigantic twin cam contraptions. They have to be waaay heavier than the heads on an LSx. Pushrods, remember. That means that given a similar total weight (which I think we'll find once someone posts the 928 weight) the LSx has the advantage because it will have a lower center of mass than the top heavy 928 engine. Bringing the center of mass down compared to the roll centers, increases handling and stability, not the other way around. Am I wrong? What did I miss?

Everybody seems to have two beliefs they won't let go of. 1.) LSx engines are heavy. They aren't. 2.) Conversions are cheap. They aren't. (Caveat: bad conversions are cheap. Conversions you'll drive and enjoy, aren't.)

In fact, that last holds true of any restoration, restomod or conversion.

H


Two edits: First, I don't think Renegade builds motors. I think they do crate engines. Not sure though. I never asked. Second, Renegade will build you a complete car. I haven't asked for a quote though because I intend to do it all myself. I don't really need anybody's help to do an engine swap. Although this will be the first time I've had the luxury of using a kit. So we'll see how that goes.

[rich]

It seems you have no understanding of what a balanced car is. When you remove several hundred pounds from the front of the car the alignment changes, the springs then need to be changed. The weissach rear axle is now not functioning as designed. The list goes on.

Engine weights

http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt

Here's your chevy. Handles great!

Don Renfrow Video

[dcrasta]

Twin Turbo 928 5 liter 32 Valve motors are just s3x. How can anyone argue that ?

[SolReaver]

OK, I will try it ONE MORE time.

I will take on ANY and I Repeat ANY small block conversion 928 in my Stock Porsche.
They will loose. WHY?

1) they don't exist in running form. I might as well issue this challenge to Honest politicians, Moral lawyers, or hard working civil servants.

2) I am in Houston. The wrecks that do move under their own power would never make it here to begin with. There are 5 abortions in the area....BUT I am not even remotely worried that they will EVER see the open road. The only 928 conversion I EVER saw move was TRAILERED from show to show to sell the conversion kit. Others I have only seen pictures of and all of them overheated, had no AC, had their lights non retracting and generally look like a bad erector set.

3) the contest is then to Drive the vehicles from here to California and register and smog them there. Winner takes all. Come on YA Pansies !!

4) NONE of the conversions EVER make it to registered and on the road driving. they are "track cars" or "racing cars".... What absolute GARBAGE. A road trip on the 10...across country with a non registered car? IF you made it to Blanka, your car would be impounded at the checkpoint.

3) gas prices would make it prohibitively expensive. They do NOT get 25 MPG. Ha ha, that is a rich one! Further as it is a small block chevy...you would need gallons of oil to keep topping off for a long tip. Crossing the Texas panhandle during the day without AC is suicide. Less that adequate cooling will have you out of the running and Dead in El Paso, where the rims and tires would get stripped in seconds.

4) The contest is then to Drive the vehicles from here to California and register and smog them there. Come on YA Pansies !! Winner is the first to have legal CA plates, title, and tags. NONE of you pathetic, tire kicking, loosers can even DREAM about pulling this off.

ALL small block 928 conversion Fanatics....PUT UP OR SHUT THE F#CK up!
I am sick to death of this drivel. Try to convince someone who hasn't done dozens of engine swaps. From this point on...PUT UP or SHUT UP FOREVER. Excuses are like...well...they are like 928 small block conversions only smell better.

One week to meet all challengers with running, registered 928 small block conversions. High noon San Jacinto monument.

I will be there...Laughing at the empty parking lot and smug in the superiority of a Stock engine in a stock Porsche. Conversion guys will be scouring the Internet for some custom adapter plate that Renegade doesn't make...

BTW....Renegade sells kits. not working cars. Ever wonder about that?

[not_hans_stuck]

Originally Posted by rich

It seems you have no understanding of what a balanced car is. When you remove several hundred pounds from the front of the car the alignment changes, the springs then need to be changed. The weissach rear axle is now not functioning as designed. The list goes on.

Engine weights

http://www.35pickup.com/mulligan/weight.txt

Here's your chevy. Handles great!

Don Renfrow Video

First off, this isn't about me or what I know or what I've done. But as far as that goes, I've never built a totally bad ass 928 powered 914 like yours, but I have done some stuff with some cars. And that is a totally bad ass 914, BTW. Simply awesome.

Anyway.

The link was good. I am beginning to detect a theme though so at the risk of insulting somebody, which I do not intend, I'll say the following.

The 350 small block chevy and the LSx motors are not the same thing. The 350 is a big heavy old-school cast-iron block lump of a motor. The LSx motors are all aluminum. I'm talking about the LSx motors, not the 350.

The link above gives weights for the 350 but not the LSx.

Having said that it appears the LSx is lighter than the Porsche motor by about 150lbs.

So, to your point Rich, there might indeed be a balance issue, but it's the other way. It won't be front heavy. That gives you plenty of room to work with. It means the added weight of a blower would actually help. As would a giant radiator - always good in Texas - maybe not all that useful up in Minnesota.

Love the video. Not really related. Crappy car, crappy driver.

H

[not_hans_stuck]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

OK, I will try it ONE MORE time.

I will take on ANY and I Repeat ANY small block conversion 928 in my Stock Porsche.
They will loose. WHY?

1) they don't exist in running form. I might as well issue this challenge to Honest politicians, Moral lawyers, or hard working civil servants.

2) I am in Houston. The wrecks that do move under their own power would never make it here to begin with. There are 5 abortions in the area....BUT I am not even remotely worried that they will EVER see the open road. The only 928 conversion I EVER saw move was TRAILERED from show to show to sell the conversion kit. Others I have only seen pictures of and all of them overheated, had no AC, had their lights non retracting and generally look like a bad erector set.

3) the contest is then to Drive the vehicles from here to California and register and smog them there. Winner takes all. Come on YA Pansies !!

4) NONE of the conversions EVER make it to registered and on the road driving. they are "track cars" or "racing cars".... What absolute GARBAGE. A road trip on the 10...across country with a non registered car? IF you made it to Blanka, your car would be impounded at the checkpoint.

3) gas prices would make it prohibitively expensive. They do NOT get 25 MPG. Ha ha, that is a rich one! Further as it is a small block chevy...you would need gallons of oil to keep topping off for a long tip. Crossing the Texas panhandle during the day without AC is suicide. Less that adequate cooling will have you out of the running and Dead in El Paso, where the rims and tires would get stripped in seconds.

4) The contest is then to Drive the vehicles from here to California and register and smog them there. Come on YA Pansies !! Winner is the first to have legal CA plates, title, and tags. NONE of you pathetic, tire kicking, loosers can even DREAM about pulling this off.

ALL small block 928 conversion Fanatics....PUT UP OR SHUT THE F#CK up!
I am sick to death of this drivel. Try to convince someone who hasn't done dozens of engine swaps. From this point on...PUT UP or SHUT UP FOREVER. Excuses are like...well...they are like 928 small block conversions only smell better.

One week to meet all challengers with running, registered 928 small block conversions. High noon San Jacinto monument.

I will be there...Laughing at the empty parking lot and smug in the superiority of a Stock engine in a stock Porsche. Conversion guys will be scouring the Internet for some custom adapter plate that Renegade doesn't make...

BTW....Renegade sells kits. not working cars. Ever wonder about that?

Howdy. Agreed. I've never seen one either. In fact, I've seen very few conversion threads on it. I'm in Houston also. Do you do Cars and Coffee? There are quite a few 928's that show up. Most aren't in very good shape, though. My mechanic - I don't work on my Mercedes anymore - is a former factory 928 mechanic. He has a totally wicked turbocharged 928 that he built himself.

We should get together. Also, for my part, I said this was a thought exercise on the 928. I am actually doing the swap on my 911, though.

H

[rich]

Well to top that. I have a conversion with a real Porsche engine. I have been to Nor Cal, So Cal twice, Lancing Mich., Columbus IN., Huntsville AL., Hershey PA., Grand Junction CO., Moab UT., The only time it was on a trailer is in 2004 when I completed the conversion. I had 5 miles on the car and trailered it out to Nor Cal and put 500 miles on it in some of the coolest twisty roads and took a lap around Mazda Raceway.

Since mid summer I have traveled across country twice. First from MN to Medford OR. Then from MN to Ouray CO. and up through the Black Hills for the return leg. After working on the tune of the CIS I was averaging 22 mpg. Not a bad average mileage considering there were 50 miles sections of rural winding prairie highway that felt the scorch of my 255/50's at triple digits.

[not_hans_stuck]

Check this insane thing out.

Yellow Supercharged chevy powered Porsche 928 - YouTube

I think this one is Rich's worst nightmare!



H

[SolReaver]

Coffee? coolness.


I just got a big job out and I am free this weekend. It was a job for a friend so...I am short on bucks again. Like I said...if I had to fix Porches for a living I would starve to death...seems to be so. EVERYBODY wants it done immediately when it is scorching out, but now that it has cooled off... Nothing. Go figure. Monday I will talk to the SM at Momentum and a Jag shop that knows me.

Driving my half engine right now. The 928 is... in my brothers name, needs a few more weeks worth of work, and I can't keep donating time and money to a vehicle in his name, I put hundreds of hours of work into it and a lot of my own money to find out he won't put me on the title.. so it is essential dead.

The local Dealership wants 135 an hour and doesn't work on anything older than 10 years old. I met my brothers alternate mechanic and although he is a nice guy... I wasn't impressed with his work. He is neither Porsche or 928 material.

There are only a handful of 928 mechanics in Houston and I lost touch of the two I could trust. Can't remember their names but recognize their faces.

Yea, tell me where you guys all hang in the morning and I will show up.

[SolReaver]

Wow, It is yellow, travels under its own power in a straight line, and smokes its tires on wet pavement.

Already much better than most of the v8 conversions I have seen.

[rich]

Originally Posted by not_hans_stuck

Check this insane thing out.

Yellow Supercharged chevy powered Porsche 928 - YouTube

I think this one is Rich's worst nightmare!



H

Yep, fellow MN guy. He's cool. And the car has big bucks invested. That thing is fast and has all the bells. And the blower belt whistles! I wonder how he would do crossing the Mojave or coming out of Vegas up the car killer.

[Normy]

Originally Posted by SolReaver

Wow, It is yellow, travels under its own power in a straight line, and smokes its tires on wet pavement.

Already much better than most of the v8 conversions I have seen.

SolReaver-

Listen- I'm a 928 purist. I don't race my car [I want to, but time and expense won't work right now], and I'm all about preserving "Project 928", IMHO one of the greatest products ever built. At the same time, I believe there is a time and a place for everything.

I drove my 928 to Detroit in 2003 so that I could have a car for training at my new airline. While I was there, I hung out with the "Detroit crew", when they had their monthly "beer nights". Great idea, great people. One of them was Rob Budd, who makes the BEST hood liners in the business!

[My best friend is a VW Corrado fanatic; I mentioned Rob Budd to him, and they communicated; Now Rob serves the fanatical Corrado community]

Rob Budd had an '80 928 in guards red with a chevy conversion. It made about 300 hp.

-When it drove up, it sounded just like any other 928.

-The iron chevy small block weighs 550 pounds, just like the M28. That means the car handles the same. The aluminum block versions weigh about 60 pounds less, but from what I've been told this is not enough to materially effect the handling of the car.

-It makes about the same power as the original M28.

-It gets the same fuel milage as the original M28.

The long and short? This engine, while technologically crude....actually can indeed replace our M28 engines.

NOW...

Lets talk about resale value. A chevy 928 is going to resale for THOUSANDS less than the original engine, unless we are talking about a $3k beater.

WHATS MORE....that conversion is NOT easy, and it is NOT cheap!!!

-If your 928 skips a tooth and you bend a bunch of valves, you might keep the car on the road on the cheap by buying Renegade Hybrids kit and mounting some old chevy van engine in your car while you rebuild the M28. The problem is....this kit is missing a very hard to find bellhousing part from a rare 1960's chevy car, and as such it is difficult to do.

In the end, Rob Budd told me that mounting the built 350, along with all the parts he had to source....cost about the same as a decent rebuild on the original engine.

Brings up a question: What's the point?

-Someone before mentioned an LS7 engine. That's a seriously cool idea, but the problem with that one is that you are getting close to the G28 transmission's maximum torque of about 600 foot/pounds. That simply means that you are going to have to rebuild the transmission, and replace the clutch if you do this. And plan on doing it about two or three years later.

If you add power, you remove reliability. That's how it works.

N!

[SolReaver]

OK the Bananna is "interesting". BUT It could never meet the Solreaver challenge as mentioned previously. Besides...that is just film.... Cameras....pictures.... BS.

WOW! I can drive it around the block and it looks cool ! Ooooh! I have a shiny hood scoop and butterflies ! Let me see it corner at speed, Brake hard in an emergency, or Drive from LA to Vegas in the summer.... EPIC FAIL time!

Next you will be telling me that a high rise roots blower equipped car gets good mileage? Oh, and that it is happy on regular pump gas? N-word Pa-lease! The car is a curiosity, a freakshow.

Unimpressed....Try showing off to teenage boys who don't know cars..

[rich]

When I was in Vegas with the Alien I stopped at Renegade to meet Scott and check out his Chevy's. I ended up buying a core 928 engine from him they pulled out for a conversion. He told me the front end of the car sat way high. They ended up having to replace the springs.

BTW: After checking out my car he asked me why I did it. I told him because the concensus was it couldn't be done and I wanted to build a Porsche.

He just kind of stared like he didn't get it.

[SolReaver]

Normy: What is your point?

That a long time ago, in a land far, far away, there was one 928 chevy conversion that didn't suck?

Yea, I heard that one. Even saw pictures of it. Where is it today? No, REALLY? where IS this mythical creature? Why didn't Renegade or anyone else duplicate it? Yes, a good aircraft engineer / mechanic did it once. Or so the story goes....

IS it going to show up and face my challenge? Ummmmm....No. Does Renegade have a car that will meet my challenge? NO. Does ANYONE have a chevy powered 928 that will meet the challenge?

NO....NO....NO.

Are YOU going to step up to the plate? NO

All I ask for is PROOF. ONE, living, tangible car that will DARE to go toe to toe with my plain, vanilla, stock car. Hec, I will make it easy....I will use my 924S "half engine" For Gods sake I could Face off with a YUGO and still win because THERE IS NO COMPETITION.

They are all non-street legal projects and 99 and 44/100 Percent of them are POS.

Don't debate me! Talk is CHEAP. PUT UP or shut up.

[not_hans_stuck]

Well, i cant really meet that challenge. Ive never seen one and I'm not doing two projects at once (again). Maybe in a year or two. But to be honest, a quick survey of the 928 market today is pretty sad. Theres one GTS for sale on ebay but you wouldnt want to muc around with that. Too rare. Almost all the rest are beaters or automatics (or both). So by the time i get around to it, i might have to do a 944 instead.

I think another reason you may not see these cars is because 928 owners and enthusiasts seem to be somewhat dogmatic about modifying them. Its the same with 911's, but i just dont care.

[SolReaver]

OH no, Finish up what you have for sure. It will be interesting.

Forgive my ranting, it is just when i was looking around for a project 928 I saw soo many wrecks that some fool thought they could transplant an American mill into. It ALWAYS ended poorly.

Keep up the good work and drive carefully when yo get her going. That kind of engine has a tendency to get out from under you a bit too quickly.