964 & 993: Can They be Kept Running without a Pro?

[macleodm3]

Are either the 964 or the 993 a car that can be maintained and reapaired from a home workshop over the long run? The older 911's (up through the G50's) sound like a better car for the diy'er (no power steering, less electronics, less suspension parts).

Sometime during the next year I'll be purchasing a '78 to '97 that I plan on keeping for a long time and driving on the weekends and I live too far from any Porsche shop and will need to maintain and repair the car myself.

Thanks
Andrew A

[Cobalt]

It all depends on your capabilities. I have a lift in my garage and service all my cars. I currently have my 964 3.6T, a friends 993TT, a friends US spec cup car, my 93C2, 928GTS, and 2 981's I service regularly. I also have my 964 track car I have the engine out for a rebuild. Sadly lately I seem to be doing more servicing than driving but if you have the skills it isn't rocket science.

If you have the skills and a lift these are relatively easy cars to maintain. However I caution you these are 30++ year old cars depending on the model you chose and its condition can make a huge difference. Each has its idiosyncrasies. The earlier cars have some issues like steel to aluminum fittings you need to learn which to cut vs remove at times. The 964's have their complications as well but are IMO easier to work on as they get older and the 993's take the 964 and make it a bit overly complicated but all are great cars to be driven.

Mechanics are mechanics and if you understand how to work on cars you can make your way through easily enough it is just getting to know the inherent issues and concerns of the model you chose to work on. Unlike when I started out you have google, rennlist, pelican and other forums with a wealth of knowledge to guide you along.

GL

[Bill Verburg]

I agree w/ most of what cobalt said but will add

electrically thru 1995 MY will be a wash they are all quite similar, from 1996 US models are OBD2 that adds a level of complexity and potentially emissions related issues. much of the latter depend on where you live and local regs.

through '89 is mostly the same car w/ some steps
1984 Motronic engine management is more reliable and easier to take care of than previous CIS

1987up G50 is generally preferred over previous 915, though there is really nothing wrong w/ 915.

through '89 suspension was mostly the same as simple as can be

964 got more complicated suspension which will be more expensive to maintain and 993 got an even more complicated rear suspension that will be even more expensive to maintain. When up to spec the newer suspension are better performance wise than the older.

through '89 brakes are marginal for track use(don't know if that's an issue or not), 964 is much better and again 993 even better.

if performance wheels and tires are desired though 964 is mostly a wash as 8 front and 9.5 rears can be fitted, 993 extends the envelope to 9 front and 10.5 rear.

You can sit in a 993 and if you don't look too closely at the dash wouldn't be able to tell what year it was from "94 thru 97.

driving feel will be very similar w/ the later the car, the faster it will be, But none can compete in a drag race w/ the more modern water-cooled cars.

[Marine Blue]

I was in a similar boat about 6 years ago and had narrowed my search to 87 to 98. The recommendation to keep in mind is to buy the best condition car you can afford.

I’ll add to above that there is tons of information on the web for both cars which makes diagnosing significantly easier. Once diagnosed you can research the repair procedures and decide how to tackle them.

If you’re able to work on an earlier 911 there’s no reason why you couldn’t just as easily work on the 964 and 993. The primary difference is that there are a few more emissions components and the power steering which is relatively reliable. The 964 and 993 also benefit from a great HVAC system once you’ve gone through them and done the updates.

Good luck with the search and decision, you honestly can’t go wrong with any of them.

[SadDad]

I agree with these all I know is my MY 91 C2 it isn’t all that hard especially when a person has this site and rennlist. I’d never seen a 964 when mine got dropped in front of our house in 2014. I stared at it read a ton stared some more then finally got started easy stuff at first eventually took the car apart put it back together and drive it as much as possible. Good luck in what ever you get the help you can get from every one you will be ok

[macleodm3]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

It all depends on your capabilities.

Mechanics are mechanics and if you understand how to work on cars you can make your way through easily enough it is just getting to know the inherent issues and concerns of the model you chose to work on.

GL

You mention that the 964 is easier to work in some ways than the earlier ones and that the 993 gets more complicated. Even with its more complicated systems, it sounds like the 993 can still be kept alive with today's parts availability and resources. I thank you for your response.

Andrew A

[macleodm3]

Originally Posted by Marine Blue

I was in a similar boat about 6 years ago and had narrowed my search to 87 to 98. The recommendation to keep in mind is to buy the best condition car you can afford.

If you’re able to work on an earlier 911 there’s no reason why you couldn’t just as easily work on the 964 and 993. The primary difference is that there are a few more emissions components and the power steering which is relatively reliable. The 964 and 993 also benefit from a great HVAC system once you’ve gone through them and done the updates.

Good luck with the search and decision, you honestly can’t go wrong with any of them.

This is all great news! Awesome.
You mention to buy the best condition car I can afford, I agree. Right now, all the years have similar pricing... so no reason to choose a generation based on price (although 964s are the most $$). It sounds like they are all very fun to drive, so don't base it on driving technology. Since you guys are telling me that they are all pretty rerasonable to work on then perhaps its best to choose a 911 thats the favorite all around package (which is different for everybody).

Andrew A

[macleodm3]

Originally Posted by Bill Verburg

I agree w/ most of what cobalt said but will add

electrically thru 1995 MY will be a wash they are all quite similar, from 1996 US models are OBD2 that adds a level of complexity and potentially emissions related issues. much of the latter depend on where you live and local regs.

driving feel will be very similar w/ the later the car, the faster it will be, But none can compete in a drag race w/ the more modern water-cooled cars.

Hey Bill, thanks for that excellent summary! Here in VA, I'll call it an antique and also we have no emissions checks, but Check Engine Lights annoy me and don't want that on all the time. Not looking for a modern "Fast" car... I've always enjoyed cars that you have to "drive" to keep your speed up (ever since my 1st car, the '80 RX-7).

[Kein_Ersatz]

Depends on your skills and your tools, but in general yes, but at some point it may need a trip to a pro.

Lots of info available online / DIY videos / Bentley / rennlist 964/993 forums.

[Balisong]

One other idea for you.
I have two stock 964s and a 76 911S.
By 76 everything but the roof was galvanized….it definitely matters.
Narrow body, no brake booster, wind up windows…light.
Before I bought my 76 it had an engine teardown and got all the upgrade goodies a 2.7 needs. Trans was resealed too. The car has been perfectly reliable.
I added MK Headers and Scart exhaust.
The result is a solid, light weight, free reving, glorious noise machine. In many ways it’s more compelling to get in the 76 to drive. But no I don’t want to get rid of my 964s either.
The point is if you find a sorted well preserved 76 or 77 I absolutely recommend them.
I spoke to a long term PCar mech shop owner yesterday and he feels the 964s are the best 911s they made. He said that to me while he had his hands on a 16K mile 993.

[Marine Blue]

The consensus is that Porsche initiated many of the manufacturing cost saving measures when they designed the 993 and that the automation process while providing a more consistent product did not have the same overall build quality as the 964. That doesn’t make the 993 a bad car by any stretch, it was still leaps and bounds better built than most other period cars.

Another thought is to consider a Targa in addition to a coupe, you might be able to find a nicer example as the Targa’s are usually priced 10-15% lower than the coupe. Unless of course you don’t like the lines of the Targa.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by macleodm3

Hey Bill, thanks for that excellent summary! Here in VA, I'll call it an antique and also we have no emissions checks, but Check Engine Lights annoy me and don't want that on all the time. Not looking for a modern "Fast" car... I've always enjoyed cars that you have to "drive" to keep your speed up (ever since my 1st car, the '80 RX-7).

Then stick w/ a '95 or earlier car, the US OBD2 versions from '96 up are the ones prone to CEL issues

The only system on a 993 more complex than that of a 964 is the rear suspension, in general all the other systems are just upgraded and usually more eliable versions of 964.

If you can get a RoW 993 n/s they are also OBD1 and like the US '95 more friendly to own

if you get a '96 up 9993 not only is the suspension more complicated and expensive(and tricky to set up in the wrong hands) but you also get Vram,

vram is very nice for a street car as it boosts mid range torque a lot, the down side is more potential for vacuum leaks and there are more moving parts, The good news is vram can be added to a non vram 993 very easily.

Look through the sticky at the top of the forum for details on differences

[Balisong]

I had to pay a good bit more for my 964 Targa than I paid for my 964 coupe. My Targa is lower miles (15K vs 57k) but 964 Targas are very rare in the US and the general rule that Targas are cheaper doesn’t necessarily apply to 964s. The recent Targa examples on BAT (for the last year or so) make it hard to prove my point because all of them either had issues, previous accidents, or were piss poorly represented on BAT without even a driving video. When a really nice low mile original paint 964 Targa finally hits BAT I think people will be astounded at what it brings.
When 964 Targa shopping I would say don’t be afraid to pay coupe prices.
3.2 and lower Targas are way more abundant and yes those are generally cheaper than a comparable coupe.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by Balisong

One other idea for you.
I have two stock 964s and a 76 911S.
By 76 everything but the roof was galvanized….it definitely matters.
Narrow body, no brake booster, wind up windows…light.
Before I bought my 76 it had an engine teardown and got all the upgrade goodies a 2.7 needs. Trans was resealed too. The car has been perfectly reliable.
I added MK Headers and Scart exhaust.
The result is a solid, light weight, free reving, glorious noise machine. In many ways it’s more compelling to get in the 76 to drive. But no I don’t want to get rid of my 964s either.
The point is if you find a sorted well preserved 76 or 77 I absolutely recommend them.
I spoke to a long term PCar mech shop owner yesterday and he feels the 964s are the best 911s they made. He said that to me while he had his hands on a 16K mile 993.

Owning both a 1976 Carrera(much modified) and a '95 993(also much modified) it's hard to choose between them. But each has it's forte

the '76 is a much more fun street car, a lot of that is from the Targa, and 993 much more fun track car

[matsuzaka]

I think Bill V is absolutely right, maintainability wise OBD 1 is far better. OBD 2 requires more access to computer but late nineties is still not as severe as much newer cars.

[Cobalt]

Nice targa Bill!!

I just went through 18 hours of figuring out the complicated US IMMObilizer system on the 993TT. It is a US headache. I stick with the 964's just because of these reasons. None of the complications or special kinematic tools needed for rear wheel alignment. No undo CEL lights from the air injection which I have been able to fix with piano wire and a lot of foul language.

I personally prefer the CIS cars over the later motronic but these are all things you will need to brush up on before making your decision.

GL.

[macleodm3]

Originally Posted by Cobalt

I personally prefer the CIS cars over the later motronic but these are all things you will need to brush up on before making your decision.
GL.

Previous cars of mine (as well as my exp. aircraft) use continuous injection and personally I really like it because its reliable and easy to overhaul or have overhauled for a reasonable price. As much as I would love the extra HP and refinements of a newer one, my DIY 911 future is narrowing.

Can the A/C systems of the 911 SC be kept alive / converted to R134?

These replies are ALL helping more than you all know. Thanks!

Andrew A

[p911dad]

I have had and enjoyed a long term 82 SC and an 84 Carrera, and now 98 C2. Speaking of the A/C in both the SC and 84 Carrera, the system was never meant for the US climate. I spent a lot of $ and time trying to perfect both car's A/C and never had a good result for very long. There are systems that I have heard work but again, how much $$$ do you want to spend for cool air? The 993 on the other hand has great A/C even in NC it works satisfactorily.
I have maintained all these cars myself and only go to my independent garage for really complicated stuff, I know my limits! They have all been very reliable cars, unlike a bunch of other sports cars I have owned. Good luck with your search!

[CosmosMoon]

Some perspective from someone who was in your position last summer. I'm a competent DIY'er, but new to Porsches. I had a good deal of mechanic experience from my younger days, but hadn't done my own car work for many years. I bought a 1998 993 in October and immediately dove in the deep end and had it apart for much of the winter, and did a TON of stuff to it - full suspension refurb, new coil-overs, stainless steel brake lines, dropped engine, back-dated cam timing gears, Midweight flywheel, MPL clutch slave ... you get the idea.

The car is running REALLY well now with no noticeable oil leaks or change in oil level for the past 1000miles, so yeah, I was able to do it with no disasters. One thing about cars is that how easy/hard any given job can be is often totally dependent on the car's history. One of the biggest hurdles for non-pros is when things don't go according to the manual - seized bolts, broken bolts, impatience, frustration, etc can really send things sideways. This was one of the reasons I opted for a newer model - yes, there's more "stuff" and it's a bit more complicated, but (most) everything comes apart and goes back together very easily, and it all looks nice and clean. I also don't skimp when I need tools (SK, Wera, SnapOn, and Stomski), or books; Factory Service manuals, the Bentley guide and the Adrian Streather book - just to cover all bases, though this forum and RennList are really the best resources! Making that kind of investment will make the journey much more enjoyable... but set aside some of your budget for this stuff - it adds up!

I don't have a lift, I've done everything with good jack stands and floor jacks. If you have a smooth floor and lots of room, floor jacks are not terrible, and probably what you'll start with. I can get the car on jack stands in under 10 minutes.

The 97/98 993's are not as bad as some folks make out if you're willing to pay for someone to map your ECU, and if you don't have to worry about emissions. When I dropped the engine I removed / blocked off the SAI system, then had Todd Knighton (Protomotive) flash the ECU. He deleted the SAI check as well as the immobilizer... along with tuning it beautifully for my cams / flywheel. Careful with the '96 as it has ODBII but cannot be flashed! (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that) You can do even more with these 993s to simplify the engine bay if you like but things work together in mysterious ways, so it's always worth doing some research- e.g. getting rid of the blower motor! Power-steering, AC, etc ... is all pretty cut-and-dried, I wouldn't fret about that.

Good luck with your eventual purchase, they're great cars and a fun hobby.

[Bill Verburg]

Originally Posted by CosmosMoon

Some perspective from someone who was in your position last summer. I'm a competent DIY'er, but new to Porsches. I had a good deal of mechanic experience from my younger days, but hadn't done my own car work for many years. I bought a 1998 993 in October and immediately dove in the deep end and had it apart for much of the winter, and did a TON of stuff to it - full suspension refurb, new coil-overs, stainless steel brake lines, dropped engine, back-dated cam timing gears, Midweight flywheel, MPL clutch slave ... you get the idea.

The car is running REALLY well now with no noticeable oil leaks or change in oil level for the past 1000miles, so yeah, I was able to do it with no disasters. One thing about cars is that how easy/hard any given job can be is often totally dependent on the car's history. One of the biggest hurdles for non-pros is when things don't go according to the manual - seized bolts, broken bolts, impatience, frustration, etc can really send things sideways. This was one of the reasons I opted for a newer model - yes, there's more "stuff" and it's a bit more complicated, but (most) everything comes apart and goes back together very easily, and it all looks nice and clean. I also don't skimp when I need tools (SK, Wera, SnapOn, and Stomski), or books; Factory Service manuals, the Bentley guide and the Adrian Streather book - just to cover all bases, though this forum and RennList are really the best resources! Making that kind of investment will make the journey much more enjoyable... but set aside some of your budget for this stuff - it adds up!

I don't have a lift, I've done everything with good jack stands and floor jacks. If you have a smooth floor and lots of room, floor jacks are not terrible, and probably what you'll start with. I can get the car on jack stands in under 10 minutes.

The 97/98 993's are not as bad as some folks make out if you're willing to pay for someone to map your ECU, and if you don't have to worry about emissions. When I dropped the engine I removed / blocked off the SAI system, then had Todd Knighton (Protomotive) flash the ECU. He deleted the SAI check as well as the immobilizer... along with tuning it beautifully for my cams / flywheel. Careful with the '96 as it has ODBII but cannot be flashed! (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that) You can do even more with these 993s to simplify the engine bay if you like but things work together in mysterious ways, so it's always worth doing some research- e.g. getting rid of the blower motor! Power-steering, AC, etc ... is all pretty cut-and-dried, I wouldn't fret about that.

Good luck with your eventual purchase, they're great cars and a fun hobby.

Through '95 US and all RoW 993 are 55pin OBD1 which means that they have an owner replaceable chip. This opens up a whole world of tuning options, examples are get rid of immobilizer, add vram tune for cams etc.

for '96 up, US 993 got 88 pin OBD2
US '96 DME has a twin chip non flashable architecture, '97 up have the later single flashable chip design. These '97/98 DMEs can be flashed by a pro to adapt to mods similar to the OBD1 designs.