964 clutch options and "while in there" items - Page 3

iamtheari · 03-02-2015, 10:26 AM

johnsjmc: Yes, that is the seal in question. The Pelican technical articles for the 911 make it sound like prying against either the crankshaft or the crankcase is a bad idea when removing the flywheel seal. Is it safe to do that on the 964?

johnsjmc · 03-02-2015, 10:52 AM

I haven,t read the pelican article but have pulled dozens over the years . There are hooked tools designed to pull a seal but a screwdriver has always worked for me.

johnsjmc · 03-02-2015, 10:58 AM

It's turned out to be harder than anticipated to find a ring terminal that fits on the alternator wire. The O'Reillys, Sears, and hardware stores I've looked in have all come up short with the largest-gauge ring terminals in stock being 10-12awg. I estimate that the alternator wire is a 2awg. I don't want to put all that 1990-era aftermarket stereo junk back in the car with the engine.[/QUOTE]

Look in the house electrical section at Home Depot. or perhaps West Marine for battery cable ends #2 is battery cable size for a boat or 125 amp service for a house

iamtheari · 03-02-2015, 11:04 AM

Closest Home Depot is 120 miles, closest West Marine is 600. I just ordered ring terminals from Amazon. I was surprised my local hardware store didn't have something, as half our local population lives in RVs due to the oil boom related housing shortage. I should have asked for the RV department, maybe. I'll pry that seal out tonight and get moving forward. Thanks!

johnsjmc · 03-02-2015, 11:53 AM

Funny I never looked at your location before. yours is probably the only 993 within 500 mi too.

iamtheari · 03-02-2015, 12:10 PM

Mine is a 964, but oddly enough I've seen a 993 cabrio about 180 miles from here and a 997GT2RS on the interstate about 250 miles from here once. I actually suspect that the GT2RS lives closer to me based on the information available to me, but I have not seen it on the road any closer than 250 miles and headed this direction (from the nearest city with a dealership, which I know had a GT2RS in for a customer not long before I saw it on the road).

johnsjmc · 03-02-2015, 01:19 PM

Up until a few years ago there were less than a dozen Porsche dealers in all of Canada,3 of which were in Toronto and 3 in Montreal and the rest probably Vancouver and maybe Calgary.(oil money again).
Seeing any P car any distance outside a major city was possible but not likely.
The landscape has changed since Porsche production numbers for the water cooled cars has been much higher than the air cooled cars.
We now have a dealer in my city of 350,000 about 120 mi outside Toronto. It,s surprising how many (newer ones anyway) are driving around locally.
You should also be able to source your crimp on wire terminal from any local electrician/electrical supply

iamtheari · 03-02-2015, 06:08 PM

I finally got it out, using a screw into a second location in the seal and prying back. I got the new one tapped in, maybe a little deeper than the original but within one unit of my digital micrometer's accuracy of evenly all around, so I'm hopeful it won't leak. This is a short-term seal in all likelihood, as my plan is to rebuild the engine next winter. So we'll see how well I did.

No new challenges on the clutch part of the job tonight. The flywheel pilot bearing went in smoothly, the flywheel is on and torqued down, the clutch is hanging from the clutch alignment tool, and I am awaiting delivery of the ring gear and pressure plate in order to continue. I noticed that my new pressure plate bolts are Allen head while the old set were triple-square. Did I get the right ones? I changed from stock DMF to RS lightweight SMF so maybe that's why they're different?

One challenge came up in the area of the cat bypass. My cat has a bolt into the small port sticking out of it. Now it only has a bolt shank because the head of the bolt broke off in my attempt to remove it. Is there any purpose to this or can I just find a new bolt and stick it in? PET calls for a 8x11.5 sealing ring and M8x1 bolt. I'm sure I can come up with that locally rather than another long wait for $3 worth of parts to show up in the mail. (I got the old O2 sensor out although I'm replacing it. It's just easier to do the wiring on the bench without the cat dangling from the old harness. The replacement Bosch O2 sensor I got from Pelican requires you to split into the old wiring harness.)

johnsjmc · 03-03-2015, 02:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

I finally got it out, using a screw into a second location in the seal and prying back. I got the new one tapped in, maybe a little deeper than the original but within one unit of my digital micrometer's accuracy of evenly all around, so I'm hopeful it won't leak. This is a short-term seal in all likelihood, as my plan is to rebuild the engine next winter. So we'll see how well I did.

No new challenges on the clutch part of the job tonight. The flywheel pilot bearing went in smoothly, the flywheel is on and torqued down, the clutch is hanging from the clutch alignment tool, and I am awaiting delivery of the ring gear and pressure plate in order to continue. I noticed that my new pressure plate bolts are Allen head while the old set were triple-square. Did I get the right ones? I changed from stock DMF to RS lightweight SMF so maybe that's why they're different?

One challenge came up in the area of the cat bypass. My cat has a bolt into the small port sticking out of it. Now it only has a bolt shank because the head of the bolt broke off in my attempt to remove it. Is there any purpose to this or can I just find a new bolt and stick it in? PET calls for a 8x11.5 sealing ring and M8x1 bolt. I'm sure I can come up with that locally rather than another long wait for $3 worth of parts to show up in the mail. (I got the old O2 sensor out although I'm replacing it. It's just easier to do the wiring on the bench without the cat dangling from the old harness. The replacement Bosch O2 sensor I got from Pelican requires you to split into the old wiring harness.)

The seal is less likely to leak if it,s now running on a fresh portion of the crank,either a mm higher or lower works best. As long as it,s sitting square to the crank it should be fine.
The bolt in the CAT is to allow a dealer to sample the exhaust ahead of the cat to determine if the cat has failed. I,ve never seen it used and I would just plug it as needed with any new bolt which fits rust will usually seal without any ring.

I wouldn,t rush into any rebuild unless you have issues like oil burning or low compression or no iol pressure.
The 3.6 engine will usually go over 200,000 without trouble. Except very early 964,s which didn,t have head gaskets (most of them would be fixed by now)

iamtheari · 03-03-2015, 06:43 AM

Thanks for the tips. I found an M8x1 bolt at the hardware store this morning so that problem is solved, and I feel more comfortable about the RMS knowing that seating it a little deeper than the old one isn't likely to hurt me.

The car is a 1990 Carrera 4, and as far as I can tell the engine has never been apart or even out of the car. Of course, looks can be deceiving. Maybe it came out 150,000 miles ago and I wouldn't know the difference. The reason for rebuild is 15% leakdown on cylinder #4 (appears to be exhaust valve to my inexperienced ear; other cylinders are strong, less than 5%) and miscellaneous oil leaks. I plugged as many leaks as I could with the engine in the car a couple winters ago, but it still leaves an embarrassing amount of oil on the garage floor. The crankcase seems to be the source of all or most of the remaining leaks, mostly from the through-bolts. But I'm sure I'll find other sources of oil when I get it open. I will add the head gaskets if it doesn't already have them (safe money is to bet it doesn't). And try to put back together a bone dry, bone stock 3.6 for a sane budget.

iamtheari · 03-03-2015, 06:37 PM

It turns out that the Rennline cat bypass I got has that port threaded for standard M8 bolts rather than fine-thread M8x1 as PET indicates. So I get to make at least one more trip to the hardware store.

I should point out that I found a proper-size ring terminal for the alternator-to-starter wire locally... at Tractor Supply Company.

Tonight's challenge was getting the clutch disc installed correctly. I didn't think to Google for answers until after I washed up from the job. There are multiple threads about this, and here is one more: The Sachs clutch disc is mislabeled for the Porsche 3.6 LWF (and probably other Porsche). On one side it is printed "GEARBOX SIDE" but this side must face the flywheel. Otherwise the PP will interfere with it. Once I figured that out, everything went together easily. Then I came inside and learned that I'm not blazing a new trail on that issue.

johnsjmc · 03-04-2015, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

It turns out that the Rennline cat bypass I got has that port threaded for standard M8 bolts rather than fine-thread M8x1 as PET indicates. So I get to make at least one more trip to the hardware store.

I should point out that I found a proper-size ring terminal for the alternator-to-starter wire locally... at Tractor Supply Company.

Tonight's challenge was getting the clutch disc installed correctly. I didn't think to Google for answers until after I washed up from the job. There are multiple threads about this, and here is one more: The Sachs clutch disc is mislabeled for the Porsche 3.6 LWF (and probably other Porsche). On one side it is printed "GEARBOX SIDE" but this side must face the flywheel. Otherwise the PP will interfere with it. Once I figured that out, everything went together easily. Then I came inside and learned that I'm not blazing a new trail on that issue.

The clutch discs made by Sachs can be labelled EITHER way. It probably depends on whether they were originally made for the 911 application or the BMW appl.. I went thru the same thing last year ,with a slight drag at startup. The internet convinced me I probably had the disc in backwards and I dropped the engine again. It was in the right way and labelled correctly. I should have been more confident in my own abilities.
I,ve been a licensed tech in Ont. for 30 yrs but even though I,ve owned and worked on numerous 911,s this was the first hydraulic clutch ,G50 I had done a clutch on.
If you haven,t replaced your slave flex hose recently I would buy the braided stainless hose which is available for the turbo,s . I replaced both master and slave cyl same time, but it might have also been the smallest air bubble still in the circuit. The smallest amount of expansion of the stock hose acts like a tiny air bubble in the circuit and contributes to the slight drag I experienced. I got mine from FVD but haven,t checked Pelican or other sources

iamtheari · 03-04-2015, 04:58 AM

I didn't know there was a stainless steel line available. I have a brand new rubber hose sitting on the shelf in the garage next to the brand new master and slave cylinders. If I have any trouble with the clutch I may change to the braided stainless one you recommended.

Any thoughts on putting the clutch slave cylinder onto the transmission while it's out of the car and then just connecting the fluid line and bleeding it once it's in the car? Getting the slave cylinder off of the transmission while they were in the car was the single most frustrating part of removing the engine, and that was when I didn't have to flight against it.

johnsjmc · 03-04-2015, 05:24 AM

The best way to put the slave in is attach it while the nose of the trans is still a few inches down on the jack. If you can be safe with the engine teetering on your lift.
The next best way I found was set it on the two studs,push it in (to compress the internal slave spring) and then hold the slave pushed sideways (which jams it on the threads) and allows you to start a nut with the other hand. All done while lying on your back reaching up with one hand over the trans and the other hand up thru the suspension.
It is a PITA no matter which way you approach it.
I wish Porsche had cut a window under the back seat for access ,but that would be something Honda would do.

bazar01 · bazar01's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

Any thoughts on putting the clutch slave cylinder onto the transmission while it's out of the car and then just connecting the fluid line and bleeding it once it's in the car? Getting the slave cylinder off of the transmission while they were in the car was the single most frustrating part of removing the engine, and that was when I didn't have to flight against it.

I reinstalled the slave cylinder with the hose attached thru the driver side wheel well with just the wheel and heater hoses removed after the engine and transmission was put back in.

iamtheari · 03-04-2015, 06:08 AM

Even with the heater hose out, it was not fun to get the thing out of there. Probably it will not be as bad as I'm dreading going in since most of the struggle was finding the right angle where you can reach the nuts with a wrench and have some hope of seeing your progress without moving to a completely different position. Maybe muscle memory will help get me back to that angle.

johnsjmc · 03-04-2015, 06:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

Even with the heater hose out, it was not fun to get the thing out of there. Probably it will not be as bad as I'm dreading going in since most of the struggle was finding the right angle where you can reach the nuts with a wrench and have some hope of seeing your progress without moving to a completely different position. Maybe muscle memory will help get me back to that angle.

Also It,s easy to get the slave pushrod slightly off centre and even though it feels OK , it will slide past the lever . You won,t realize you missed the lever end socket/cup until after bleeding ,you step on the pedal and it goes to the floor. BTDT.
I seem to recall you can see the pushrod end thru one of the rubber plugged holes but would probably need a mirror when the trans is back in the car.

iamtheari · 03-08-2015, 06:03 PM

I don't know if my car had the rubber cover for the clutch inspection port where you can see the clutch fork and the slave cylinder engaging with it. I'll find out when I put things back together, as I have everything that came off the car to drop the engine in one place. I'll probably order a new one if mine is missing. I just don't remember at the moment.

I got the engine and transmission reconnected this morning. One of the wires in the weird little plug on the side of the transmission broke free so I drilled out the pin from the plug and soldered the wire back into it. Does anyone know if there is a wrong way to plug these two wires into the connector on the side of the transmission?

The new spark plug wires were a real chore. I hope I got them put back together correctly as the old ones were really working quite fine. Remaining steps are to replace the clutch cylinders and hose and then put the engine back into the car. I am doing the master cylinder in place, without removing the pedal assembly from the car. It seems tedious but R&R of the pedal assembly seems marginally more tedious.

In reviewing my notes on engine removal, I realize that I do not remember and did not mark how the electrical plugs on the engine riser bracket (the one behind the heater blower) get connected. These are the reference mark sensor, knock sensor, cylinder 3 temperature sensor, and I think cruise control. (The fuel return line and carbon canister line are also on the riser.) Does anyone have tips on getting the correct wires from the chassis to the correct plugs on the engine?

Pro tip for posterity: MARK THESE BEFORE YOU DISCONNECT THEM.

johnsjmc · 03-09-2015, 03:25 AM

All the plugs are different .either by colour ,pins count or shape. They are almost impossible to reconnect wrong. I think there is one pair in the stack up the dr. side you are talking about .The set where the flywheel sensors plug in. I think I had a no start on a 911 I converted to a 3.6 years ago. There are two plugs there which might have plugged in to each other ,but on closer examination the colour or something was different.
If only a two wire plug on the trans then probably a simple off/on switch for backup lights and polarity will make no diff.
The rubber plug I mentioned might allow you to feel for slave pin engagement but you can,t see in with the eng installed.Maybe with one of those insp. cameras or a dental mirror but not easily.

The master in place isn,t hard .Awkward with the seat installed but doable. In a 964 there is a roll pin on the clutch assembly somewhere which can fail . and result in incomplete disengagement. Look for signs while in there.

iamtheari · 03-09-2015, 02:26 PM

Thanks. I will check the connector colors. I know they are color coded on the engine side so maybe they are on the chassis side, too. And everything in the inside is awkward with the seats in but sadly my driver seat mount has one but holder that doesn't work so it's really really really awkward to put the seat back in. I've pulled it twice and hated myself both times.