964 clutch options and "while in there" items - Page 4

iamtheari · 03-09-2015, 06:27 PM

Took a look. There are three same-size connectors. Two have 3 pins and one has 2 IIRC, but on the chassis side they all have 3 conductors on the plug. The engine side are green, black, and pink. The chassis side are green, black, and white. So maybe white and pink match up?

Then there is the intake distributor, which has a few same-size connectors as well. Those are mostly black. Yet another place where 3 minutes of labeling would save hours of head scratching.

johnsjmc · 03-10-2015, 04:51 AM

Even If they look the same at a glance Chances are they won,t interchange for some other reason like a little tab or slot .

iamtheari · 03-13-2015, 07:50 PM

It did seem like the connectors all had some kind of slot or color to match up. They're all plugged it, at any rate. I made two mistakes as I put the engine into the car...one mistake twice, actually. The starter caught the CV shaft and pinned the PDAS lines and their bracket. I think I escaped that without any damage. But then I pinched the heater hose when I lifted the engine back up. I was able to pull that out and it will go on easily enough. (I replaced them both with the engine in the car so I know it's easy compared to some other things I've had to do lately.)

Replacing the clutch slave cylinder and hose with the engine and transmission out of the way was very easy. Replacing the master cylinder was not hard other than the fact I didn't get the line pinched off all the way and I had to mop up brake fluid from the pedal assembly. Putting the slave cylinder into the transmission when it was lowered all the way on the jack was easy, relatively speaking. I would recommend that anyone taking the engine out do the clutch slave cylinder removal and installation with the assembly lowered. Kudos to those of you who have replaced a slave cylinder with the engine and transmission in normal position. I can't imagine how hard that would have been.

The most difficult and time-consuming point was getting the clamping sleeve in the central tube back into position. It would have been easier with a helper to turn the front wheel while I watched for alignment below, but most of the work was actually sliding the clamping sleeve into place.

I have 5 hours into the reinstallation and a few more to go this weekend. Mostly little things like the steering fluid lines, HVAC blower, A/C compressor, fuel lines, catalytic converter (bypass), secondary muffler, bumper, and so on. Then I can fill up the oil and steering fluid, turn on the ignition, and cross my fingers.

johnsjmc · 03-14-2015, 02:39 AM

All sounds good. 5 hours to reinstall isn,t bad. The flat rate book says 10 or 11 hours total for a dealer to change the clutch in a 993 , 964 would be similar. It took me about that long first time maybe about 8 second time. I didn,t remove the bumper though. Then add all the times for "while in there" stuff.
It should start right up.

iamtheari · 03-14-2015, 03:57 PM

It started right up. So I must have got all the ignition wires to the right places. Thanks for the help everyone!

wesleyc · wesleyc's Garage

Good job man !

iamtheari · 03-15-2015, 08:49 AM

Thanks. I noticed the idle was a bit fast when I started it. Remembered overnight that I didn't get the throttle cable grommet back in place on the bracket on the engine. I fought with that for an hour this morning and got it in, miraculously (I hate grommets). Noticed that the idle switch was still not being contacted, even with slack in the throttle cable. I finally noticed that the cruise control cable had slipped back in its mount and pushed it in. Next up: Test drive and top up the oil.

It's been an exciting project. 6 weeks and about 20 hours of work. I did the whole thing completely alone using the flat top jack stands that Pelican carries along with my Harbor Freight low profile high rise jack, a Harbor Freight ATV jack I borrowed from my dad, the workshop manual, common hand tools plus the XZN sockets, this forum, and all of the patience I learned while building my house. Not every step was enjoyable and some made me swear more than anyone should, but the overall experience was very positive. That being said, anyone know what car lift is the best for my garage with its 12-foot ceiling?

iamtheari · 03-16-2015, 05:07 PM

It snowed all morning but was 40F and dry in the evening so I went for a test drive and topped up fluids. I noticed the clutch slipped if I tried to give it much gas. I drove gingerly after confirming this a couple of times. Is there a break-in procedure or period? Did I just not get the new flywheel and lightly used pressure plate clean enough and it will work out or am I dropping the engine all over again?

johnsjmc · 03-17-2015, 04:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

It snowed all morning but was 40F and dry in the evening so I went for a test drive and topped up fluids. I noticed the clutch slipped if I tried to give it much gas. I drove gingerly after confirming this a couple of times. Is there a break-in procedure or period? Did I just not get the new flywheel and lightly used pressure plate clean enough and it will work out or am I dropping the engine all over again?

Could you have just been feeling the loss of tire grip on a cold road surface ?
It seems to be hard to believe you have a slipping clutch .

Remote possibility.
A very short breakin ,if any ,to get clean off oily fingerprints etc on the used disc.
Oil contamination usually needs to be very visable (dripping) before it causes slipping
Verify the adjustment of master cyl stop plate at floor .

iamtheari · 03-17-2015, 05:02 AM

It wasn't the tires losing grip. It was definitely the clutch. I base that conclusion on the behavior and the smell. Thinking back, I recall that I couldn't find my can of brake parts cleaner and I was too eager to put it all together so I didn't wait for a chance to buy a new can. From reading what I can find, probably a little bit of gentle driving should clean it up and get it working right.

The slippage is not very very bad. But if I am driving along at 1000rpm and hit the gas, the engine will rev quickly to 2000rpm or wherever I push the gas pedal to and then the rest of the car will catch up after about 1 second. It seemed to improve by the time I got home.

I will try to look at the master cylinder adjustment once I feel a little more limber. Putting the engine back in the car followed by a few hours of difficult hiking this weekend wasn't the best idea.

johnsjmc · 03-17-2015, 05:18 AM

theoretically The friction surface is new just like brake pads I suppose bedding in might need to happen but I,ve never noticed any slippage of note after a typical clutch job.

bazar01 · bazar01's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

The slippage is not very very bad. But if I am driving along at 1000rpm and hit the gas, the engine will rev quickly to 2000rpm or wherever I push the gas pedal to and then the rest of the car will catch up after about 1 second. It seemed to improve by the time I got home.

To me that is bad if the engine rpm rises when you stomp on the gas pedal while cruising in 4th or 5th gear.
The only thing you can do really is to heat up the clutch disc by doing some power shifting and hope to burn off the oil or grease contamination.

Do you have some amount pedal free play from the pedal resting stop to the point where the clutch disengages when you push it down?

iamtheari · 03-17-2015, 06:29 AM

I'll have to drive it again to see where the free play sits. It felt normal to drive but I wasn't paying close attention to the pedal free play, mostly focusing on the stiffness and smoothness.

iamtheari · 03-17-2015, 03:39 PM

I tried the free play with the car off I'm the garage. About an inch before it requires significant force to push down and about an inch that I can pull it up. Both ways, it freely returns to the rest position. So it seems to me that the pedal isn't the issue. Next up: Find time to go for a drive.

bazar01 · bazar01's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

I tried the free play with the car off I'm the garage. About an inch before it requires significant force to push down and about an inch that I can pull it up. Both ways, it freely returns to the rest position. So it seems to me that the pedal isn't the issue. Next up: Find time to go for a drive.

So it's not a pedal issue because there is a one inch pedal free play .

On the bright side, by the time you get this sorted out, you can do the engine drop and install in 2 hours.

Possible causes.
1. Pressure plate not fully seated on the FW machined surface when bolted down
2. Pressure plate has weak diaphragms
3. Clutch disc close to wear limit?
4. Mismatched parts?
5. Slave cylinder push rod longer?

iamtheari · 03-18-2015, 07:39 AM

I appreciate the gallows humor. By the time I have this sorted out, I'll have retired to Arizona where I don't have to wait for good weather to test drive and can drop the engine every evening before bed and put it back in while I wait for my oatmeal to cook every morning.

1. I tried to be careful about this as it was my first. See above my comments about the clutch disc going in backwards compared to its markings from Sachs. While I tried to sort that out, I became very cautious about how everything fit together. I torqued all pressure plate bolts in alternating sequence, progressively, and checked them twice. So this one feels unlikely to me, but it's possible.
2. Possible. I bought a pressure plate for a 3.6 Turbo, represented by a fellow Pelicanite as lightly used. The clutch was definitely pinched in place when I torqued it down, and the pedal feel is solid.
3. Very unlikely. It's a brand new clutch disc. I hope I didn't do that much damage already.

4. See #2. Other than the pressure plate, every part number is an exact match for the Carrera Cup clutch conversion kit that Pelican sells.
5. It's the correct part and seemed to fit correctly. It was difficult but not impossible to push into place on the studs by hand, so I think I was only overcoming the slave cylinder return mechanism and not any of the pressure plate tension when I installed it. But it's possible that tightening the nuts all the way down pushed it a little far.

My plan at this point is to drive the car as weather allows and see what happens. The worst case scenario doing that is that I glaze the clutch disc, and compared with the time to tear it all down again to replace the pressure plate and use a can or two or brake parts cleaner on the friction surfaces (the only wildcards I can find in my process) a new clutch disc is not a big risk. So wish me luck.

perelet · perelet's Garage

Quote:

Originally Posted by iamtheari

....
2. Possible. I bought a pressure plate for a 3.6 Turbo, represented by a fellow Pelicanite as lightly used. The clutch was definitely pinched in place when I torqued it down, and the pedal feel is solid.
....

Heari. I haven't see list of parts that you ended up installing in your car. As of Turbo pressure plate that you mentioned - Turbo setup needs one less spacer (see below), also Turbo bearing is not correct part for LWFW, but that's obvious.

You need shop press to insert bearing clip, I may have missed it in your description.

I also did LWFW recently. Some interesting facts floated up, I'll post my findings.
Sent from my iPad

iamtheari · 03-18-2015, 10:29 AM

I was able to compress the spring washer enough by kneeling on the edges of the pressure plate so that I could securely place the snap ring on the bearing. I do have the correct bearing installed. I did install both spacers. My reading of that page in the manual was that the difference applies to the Turbo model cars, not to the Turbo model pressure plates.

Conceptually, the release fork pivots so that, when you press on the clutch pedal, it pulls the throw-out bearing away from the engine. Extra spacers should gain free play before disengagement, rather than disengaging the clutch early. If T is the lip of the throw-out bearing that the release fork pulls on, P is the pressure plate, and | is a spacer, then T||P gives extra clearance when compared with T|P.

Or am I thinking about this backwards?

RedCoupe · 03-18-2015, 10:55 AM

As you disengage the clutch, the throwout bearing and the diaphragm fingers move closer to the flywheel. The diaphragm pivots on fulgrum points and the outside of the diaphragm moves away from the flywheel reducing the clamping on the clutch disk and ultimately disengaging it. I believe that the spacers on the throwout bearing are there to put a bit of preload on the fingers of the diaphragm spring to prevent noise and/or clutch chatter.

iamtheari · 03-18-2015, 11:20 AM

Are you sure? The slave cylinder applies a force toward the flywheel on one side of the release fork. Because it pivots on the release fork shaft, the other side of the release fork applies a force away from the flywheel to the ears of the throw-out bearing. The throw-out bearing transfers that force to the spinning pressure plate, pushing the inside of the fingers away from the flywheel. The fingers apply direct pressure to the friction surface in the pressure plate, so releasing the pressure on them by pulling the fingers away from the flywheel in turn releases the clutch. (This is different from other cars, which typically have a fulcrum in the pressure plate so that you release the clutch by applying pressure on the throw-out bearing toward the flywheel.)

Am I wrong? I can't figure out how the pivoting release fork works if the throw-out bearing should push the center of the pressure plate toward the flywheel to release the clutch.