You'll never get me to instruct...

[wastintime]

Hey everyone,
A friend of mine that usually goes to the track with everyone from our shop just got back form an event at Roebling Road in Savannah that he did without us, and boy did his story scare us. He's been an instructor for a few years now, and with the exception of being really impulsive sometimes he's a relaly good driver.

Anyway, he wound up with a student in a brand new Dodge Viper with a supercharger and Nitrous Oxide. ALso, he was running on goodyear racing slicks. The guy apparently was a really horrible driver and the tires were saving him from a lot of his mistakes until finally he was going into turn one, and completely lifted off the accelerator, waited too long to brake, and literally flew off the track going close to 150mph ( I was actually a little surprised he only got up to 150, I usually hit that in my RSA). The car was totalled obviously and as my friend said "thank god for airbags" they landed in a tire wall, but apparently both of them walked away with only some bruises. That's a scary ride, he said he's sworn off instructing students for a while after that one.

What's funny is one of my classroom instructors at some of my first events had a guy in a viper fly him over the tire wall and into the lake behind it, and the emergency brake was ripped off in his hand when they got out of the car... maybe there's something wrong with those viper drivers?

ANyway, that was just such a freaky story to hear today I thought I'd pass it along.

[addictionMS]

I hate to say it, but that was you buddies fault, he should have pulled that student off the track and given him a long talking to right after the first moment of poor driving, and not let him continue until there was strict adherance to the instructors instructions. Those instructions should have kept thatcar well within the safetly zone.

Jim

[Jim Richards]

Jim's right. I hope that wasn't a PCA event. Most of the PCA instructors I know have enough sense to help the student keep it safe.

[wastintime]

I don't believe it was a PCA event, I'm not willing to make a judgement on whether my friend was right or wrong simply because he is a PCA instructor, and a pretty good one from my experience as his student, and things I've heard, I don't see him letting someone be dangerous and risking his own life like that, especially with a pretty much brand new student... I think the student just got a wild hair that time down the straight and didn't listen to anything he was being told.

I have had him as an instructor twice in the past, and while he is a more aggressive than average instructor, I certainly don't think he's a bad instructor. I've seen some that I thought were just dangerous and in it for the discounted event and couldn't control their students (especially in the rain), but he's usually pretty good especially about pushing you but keeping you safe at the same time.

Oh well, hindsight is 20/20 and i have no idea how dangerously the guy was driving before it happened. Just kind of reminds you why there's that little "motorsports are inherently dangerous" tag on everything.

[GUMBALL]

I have to agree with addictionMS -

at the beginning of the event, the chief instructor MUST explain the
"LAWS OF DRIVING EVENTS:"
-SAFETY is the primary focus
-there is a reason why he is the instructor, and you are the student
-you will do what the instructor says, when he says it
-if you do not understand anything, feel free to speak to the chief
instructor
-if you are not comfortable with your instructor, feel free to talk to
the chief instructor, and ask for a change
-if you do not comply with the instructors direction, you will be
asked to leave
-there is a 3 spin rule - 3 times and the student is asked to leave
-in many schools I have done, that counts for the instructor as well
-if there is a problem, then the chief instructor does the "final" check-ride

if the student crashed, it was because the instructor let him get into a situation where he could lose the car...........and that is why there are instructors - with our experience we are supposed to keep our students below the danger threshold.....

I have had students tell me "I want to go really fast..." my answer is "I can make you really fast, BUT ONLY IF YOU DO EVERYTHING EXACTLY AS I SAY"

THE INSTRUCTOR MUST BE IN CONTROL AT ALL TIMES !!

If the student will not comply with the instructors direction, the student must be ejected from the event. If that does not happen, then the instructor should leave. I have walked away from an event I was instructing because the chief instructor would not eject a student who "knew how to drive".....said student writing off his car about 3 hrs later.....

[Todd Simpson]

-there is a 3 spin rule - 3 times and the student is asked to leave

Man, that's a lot of spins...I've never been to an event where someone has spun more than once.

The recent posts about this aggressive lead/follow stuff and the video Thom posted where he gets wacked in the side are really surprising. PCA is my only point of reference though.

[cstreit]

I've been in that place before... Not the tire wall, but with students who just refused to listen.

Some people just don't get it, and you keep hoping that the NEXT session and after showing them the lines in your car, they'll catch on. Not all do. I've had a few that just scared the bujeezus out of me... everything is fine, then they pull some brain fart maneuver that is unexplainable.

I like the "I can make you really fast, BUT ONLY IF YOU DO EVERYTHING EXACTLY AS I SAY" quote.... Perhaps that will get their attention?

Being an instructor is hard though. As everyone knows, the passenger seat is much faster than the drivers seat. I have difficulty feeling the limit of a car when I'm not behind the wheel and sometimes you can't communicate the appropriate action fast enough to save a bad driver from their own mistakes.


...so don't be too hard on the instructor.

[GUMBALL]

cstreit:
I think we have all had a student do something "out of the blue" that left us speechless......and breathless...

But, there is a big difference between a student who "does not get it", and a student who refuses to listen "because I can drive"...........

Todsimpson:
in most of the schools that I've done, a "spin" is any "off"....
a wheel off the pavement, a "sideways", or an actual spin...

[cstreit]

Originally posted by GUMBALL
cstreit:

(snip)
But, there is a big difference between a student who "does not get it", and a student who refuses to listen "because I can drive

Man are they the scary ones! I'm with you there....

[GUMBALL]

There is another tact that I have tried with a student who "doesn't get it", is to try another instructor - sometimes his (or her) method of explaining things is more understandable to that student.....
I have also had students that struggle thru session after session, but then, suddenly, THEY GET IT !! ...it is like turning on a light switch.......
If someone is slow, but is trying to learn, you just have to do the best you can.....after all, you are there for them, not the other way around......

But for the ones who refuse to comply,
the only safe way is "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY"

[North Coast Cab]

I've spent a lot of time driving with instructors this year and I can guarantee you non would have let me go 150MPH. In fact, most would keep me in a higher gear to reduce torque.

John

[Tim Stevens]

150 for a new driver?! - That is a problem...

[nostatic]

3 spin rule didn't apply on the skid pad with POC. But then again, they were trying to get us to spin and throttle steer the car

[GUMBALL]

nostatic:

the purpose of a skidpad is "to learn by doing".....
because a skidpad, by definition, is a low speed exercise, students are encouraged to slide or spin the car - consequently, it would be counter-productive to have a "spin rule" in effect...

[air-cool-me]

I've had a few that just scared the bujeezus out of me...

that’s me


I had this one poor instructors who was helping me progress quite nicely in my 325i at pacific raceways....

we were approaching turn 2 at a modest 115mph...but this happened at a much slower speed(i don’t know i had some Speedo error)

as i brake and start to heal toe and end up missing a gear right before i turned in...

i “think” i was carrying a bit more speed then normal so when i heal toe'ed i didn’t get the revs high enough.

the back end decided to make it known that i messed up in a big way it took 3 steps to the right instructor yelled (on the gas!!!! ) that and some dramatic movement of the (over 4 turn lock to lock bus style) steering wheel in that thing and it came back in shortly after that.

i think if if the car had less then the GOBS of understeer that it had it would have bitten this very rookie driver in a big way! Considering I only had that car and 300$ to my name at that point.

i was scared outa my mind having that be my first moment when there was anything but cones around.

Needless to say we practiced more of a "good line" then "car control" after that. I was really glad the car had brown leather seats after it was all over…


BTW. ANY track events in AZ that are coming up soon? and brave instructors?

[widebody911]

I've been instructing for about a year now, and I've made some interesting, if counter-intuitive observations.

Concerning first time track drivers, those with the best cars tend to make the worst students. Classic case, I'm given 2 students at this one particular event; one with a bone-stock SC, the other with a very well prepared 996 with all the goodies. Both first time drivers. The 996 driver was all over the place, but got away with it because of the level of car prep; the SC driver learned the lines very quickly because of the 'negative' feedback of the car. The 996 driver just tuned me out after a while.

Another anecdote from that same day: during the 2nd of 2 back-to-back 30 minute sessions (and his 4th session of the day), with the SC driver, his driving suddenly becomes erratic; he was doing great, then all of the sudden, he totally screws up 11 throug 15. Once we get on the front straight and he's bringing the car up to speed, I ask him if he's doing OK, commenting that the last few turns were a bit erratic. "Well, I'm not sure, but I think my brakes went out" (pumps pedal, then back on the gas) "Yup, they're gone." "Hmm, Might be a good idea to let up a bit, eh?" "Oh yeah, good idea..." I managed to talk him around the track sans brakes, without incident. He'd boiled his brake fluid, so as a bonus, I taught him how to bleed his brakes.

At the last event I attended, a guy with an Elise asked me to ride with him for a session. This was his first track day, and he had instruction earlier in the day, but I guess he was turned loose solo. This was another case of more car than skill, and he was pushing it very hard for someone with very little track experience. I tried and tried to get him to slow down, learn the line, and then add the speed back in, but he just wouldn't listen. At one point I made him slow down to 1/2 speed and deliberately track the proper line, but after 3 turns he went right back to his dukes of hazzard style of driving. He went away thinking he was The Man because the car saved his ass over and over.

(*sigh*)

[GUMBALL]

widebody911:

A student who won't listen, is a crash waiting to happen.
The ONLY way to deal with that, (after explaining the Laws of Driving Events) is to ask him to leave.

As for the SC student - as the instructor, couldn't you have sensed that he was getting a soft pedal, and had him do some cool-off laps before he lost them completely?
(not trashing you, just some advice)

[Amac]

As an instructor for several years I would have had a long talk
with the driver of a supercharged nitrous Viper before I got
in the car!! Guys like this always think they can drive!
It's true, what looks fast from the driver seat looks supersonic
in the pass. seat.

[dtfastbear]

As part of the instructor training in the local PCA organization, you have to instruct 4 "students" who are actually 4 experienced instructors role playing different types of students you will encounter.

One of these is the "I-just-got-a-new-fast-car-and-I-want-to-see-what-it-can-do-even-though-I-have-little-experience" guy. If you can't control him, you don't get to be an instructor...

Assertiveness is something you HAVE to have with students like this. If you lose control of the situation and the student, you are ballast at best, a distraction at worst. If you are the instructor and a student is driving over his head, it is your OBLIGATION to the organization who appointed you an instructor to do whatever it takes to get that person under control. Yelling may be required - but get them back in the pit lane for a strong talking to and perhaps turn them over to the chief instructor.

I had a student multiple times over the course of a few months who repeatedly drove "just" over his own limits, but with a late model car, it saved him again and again. I always reprimanded him, but not nearly forcefuly enough. This season, he hit a wall. I feel partially responsible (I wasn't in the car at the time, though) and have since changed my demeanor when instructing. Students who drive over their heads hear it from me now...

My two cents.

Dean

[masraum]

There's even a video of this sort of thing in a viper on the net. Having enough money to buy a fast car doesn't make you a good driver.