Does a harder car to drive teach you better skills?

[euro911sc]

So a gent was lamenting his choice of keeping his SC or getting a Cayman... not a bad problem, but it made me think:

I believe that the SC is a harder car to drive fast than a Cayman... so if one drives a SC well does that mean that they have developed a better skill set than a similar driver in the Cayman?

Trust me, I'm not at a level where I would think of myself as a 'good' SC driver so this is purely a thought provoking question

My own view:

I used to ride a lot of horses. Good ones and bad ones. When I would get a bad one, one that had a particular kind of problem in its training or behaviour, I was always learning something new that I could use on the next horse... some were amazed at how quickly I could adapt to their particular problem child...

So I think if you drive a problem car your general driving skill may be better than if you simply start with the easiest one. Or maybe its only good for horses...

Comments?

-Michael

[jluetjen]

I think that it depends. 911's handle well, but are demanding on the driver in order to get the best out of them. In that respect, I agree -- a car like a 911 can make you a better driver. On the other hand, an evil handling car is just that -- an evil handling car, and it will do little to help your driving skills.

[4 Kurves]

I think John makes a good point about evil handling cars but I would say that if you can master a 911 on the track then I think many other cars are "almost" easy to drive.

I know then when I climb into a Lotus Elise on the track which I have done three times I found the car ridiculously easy to master. The 50/50 weight balance makes speed almost unexciting. Ditto for a Boxster although the Boxster's higher weight brings its own set of issues.

[Jack Olsen]

If a car is unforgiving in a particular area, it'll get you more comfortable dealing with that area. 911's are great for learning lots of things, but if your goal is to be good at driving a lot of different cars, then you'll have to, well, drive a lot of different cars.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

I have heard that, once you can pedal an FWD car around a track quickly, your learning curve on practically any other car is vastly shortened. Unfortunately, I don't remember where I heard that...

I am a firm believer that starting out in a "momentum" car will make you a better driver than starting in a "point-and-squirt" car. Then again, my cars are all "momentum" cars, so I might be a teeny bit biased.

--DD

[cstreit]

I've raced a few FWD cars and found them a bit easier than the 911. Primarily because they don't tread on teh edge quite as well. If you're gonna lose it, you're lost. For example if you commit to a corner and you're understeering, all you can do is add more power. Once you're full throttle, that's it...

With a 911 there are more tricks to getting a car around a corner fast. Mind you I have a LOT more time in 911 racecars than FWD so I could be fullofit...

[nostatic]

Car setup makes a difference too. I had my old stock t-bar setup pretty wired. When we went to a more aggressive setup (23/31, 17s, revalved shocks, etc) I was actually slower because I was used to a slow responding car. I had built up habits that were not an issue with the old setup, but showed up immediately with the new one. Had to relearn technique, turn ins, apexes, and the limits of the car (and I still am).

[emcon5]

Originally posted by Dave at Pelican Parts
I am a firm believer that starting out in a "momentum" car will make you a better driver than starting in a "point-and-squirt" car. Then again, my cars are all "momentum" cars, so I might be a teeny bit biased.

I'll let you in on a little secret: They are ALL momentum cars

Tom

[nostatic]

maybe, but an 800hp twin turbo is maybe a little *less* of a momentum car

[dd74]

Originally posted by nostatic
maybe, but an 800hp twin turbo is maybe a little *less* of a momentum car

I hung with one of those for about a lap at Willow Springs. Of course, no one told me it was a warm-up lap.

[wastintime]

First of all, great post! IMHO
I think, to a certain extent, it depends entirely on your skill level. For instance, in my case I learned to drive starting in a '92 C2. Great for learning car control, but it had enough HP to scare the crap out of me and perhaps hurt me for a bit learning how deep into corners coming off a straight I could dive.

I jumped into my RS America and found it to be a whole other car, but, I can do a 2:12 in it at VIR and a 1:20 at Roebling Road in it.

Anytime I jump in a Subaru it shocks me how little I'm "working" they're about the easiest cars on the planet to drive, which can be great for both an unskilled and skilled driver. The problem is that they can also hide an awful lot of track sins an unskilled driver is committing.

When I was out at Bondurant, the put the really advanced guys into Ford SVT Mustang Cobras, because they handled so badly, and the thought was that if we could drive them fast we could drive anything fast.

Since then I've driven, Formula Fords, Miatas, 996TTs, Boxsters, a 350Z, a few Hondas, etc... I take something different away from driving each car. There is no substitute for seat time. Experience in a car will always help you as a driver no matter what car it's in, or how badly it's handling.

These are my thoughts for a beginner, however, and this is basically something my father told me about flying when I was learning to fly, but I think it's equally applicable to performance driving: You can't learn in something so hard to drive it'll kill you, scare the crap out of you, or otherwise distract you from learning. You also can't learn in something that requires almost no effort on your part. You need something relatively challenging, yet not demanding, and that happy medium might differ slightly between drivers obviously. Kind of along those lines, I'm not as gung-ho about momentum cars as most, I think there are things you simply cannot learn in them, and as Tom says, they're all momentum cars.

[gestalt1]

i guess the question is do you want to learn how to drive a specific car fast or do you want to drive any car fast. i beleive it is better to learn on a car that does exactly what you tell it to do - a foumula ford type car. most street cars do a lot of strange things that can cover good and bad driving. the problem with high horsepower cars is that the speed in the strait can cover the poor cornering speed and your lap times will be good enough that you feel you mastered the skill. a cayman is too expensive to really learn with in my opinion.

[TD in DC]

Great thread,

I have been having this exact same debate with my friends. I started out in a 996. When I started driving well enough that I was one of the top two or three fastest people in my run group, people would say "of course, what do you expect? You have 325 HP, ABS, PSM, yadda, yadda, yadda."

When I was on the verge of buying a GT3, one friend, Larry Herman, told me that it would be a big mistake at this stage in my learning curve. So, I instead bought a normally aspirated 150HP 944. No power steering, no ABS, no PSM, no horsepower.

I have learned to pedal the car around fairly well. Now, people are saying to me "Of course, what do you expect, you have one of the best handling cars that Porsche has ever made." Then, they proceed to tell me how much harder it is to be fast in a "real" 911.

These comments make me wonder how much truth there might be to the claim that 911s are hard to drive so you will be a better driver if you learn to drive them well, or whether it is all BS.

I mean, driving fast is all about weight management. Cars with different platforms may transfer weight at different times and in a different manner, but the techniques you use to manage the weight transfers remain the same.

I am on the verge of buying a real 911 just to learn for myself . . .

Here is a video of me peddling around Shenandoah Circuit last weekend . . . http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3476860519344946049 The white car in front of me is a Turbo. One of the great things about having a low HP car is that nearly every other car becomes a worthy chase "target"

BTW . . . getting a low hp car was the best decision I ever made . . .

[nostatic]

That's one reason I've stuck with my 180hp stock (motor) SC. I want an excuse. No wait, I want a challenge. No wait, I just like catching higher hp cars

The rear weight bias is the big difference...easier to throttle steer the car, and you can use that to your advantage in the corners. But I instructed a guy in a prepped na 944 and that think could be throttle steered until the cows come home. So I agree that it is all about managing the car and working with what you've got.

Another important consideration is how robust the platform is. Air cooled 911s seem to take an incredible amount of flogging at the track without complaint. Can't say that about many other cars...

[TD in DC]

Originally posted by nostatic
Another important consideration is how robust the platform is. Air cooled 911s seem to take an incredible amount of flogging at the track without complaint. Can't say that about many other cars...

Oh you 911 guys are all the same and so predictable. That comment is as predictable as "I was having problems getting into third (or second) gear" after you catch them on the track.


I am sure that you were not intending to rub salt in my wounds, but I spun my number 2 rod bearing in my third event with the '44 and I snapped my control arm at this last event So, I am particularly sensitive to comments like that . . .

Originally posted by nostatic
The rear weight bias is the big difference...easier to throttle steer the car, and you can use that to your advantage in the corners.

The funny thing is that some 911 guys talk about this as being an advantage, while others talk about how it is a disadvantage as compared to a balanced platform like the 944. So, which is it, advantage or disadvantage? This issue is one of the reasons why I want to get a "real" 911 and learn for myself.

[nostatic]

Sorry about your engine woes...no salt intended. I've been very lucky (knock on wood) in about 30 or so track days.

It is a disadvantage if you don't know how to use it. Just like any other "feature". The rear weight bias makes it really easy to throttle steer and toss around a corner. For instance in turn 4 at Willow (an uphill then downhill 180 degree horseshoe) I can go in on the throttle (uphill coming out of a slow turn), turn in to set the car, back off the throttle, have the rear end swing around, get back on the throttle, and I'm tracking out. Never touch the brakes. You can do that on other cars, but it is pretty easy in a 911.

[TD in DC]

Originally posted by nostatic
Sorry about your engine woes...no salt intended.

No worries whatsoever, I knew you were only telling the truth. I was agreeing with you on that point, and joking around myself. My air-cooled 911 friends are always hassling me about that point, and they are right, which makes it worse.

So, you think that driving a 911 is an advantage over driving a different platform, once you get used to the car's particular quirks, right?

In other words, given equal HP, equal weight, same tires, same track and environmental conditions, and the same driver with advanced, or at least intermediate, skills in both cars, a 911 should be faster than say, oh, a 944, right?

Also, would one of the cars be "easier" to drive than the other, and would this ease of driving impact lap times?

I promise I am not trolling here. I will be buying an air-cooled 911, maybe within weeks. I just hear radically different things from different drivers about 911s. Some laud its advantages. Others say "you could never get away with that in a 911" or "I just can't do that in a 911." 911s have always held a mythical status in my mind (so does the 944, but only because it was jake's car ), and some of the comments I now hear are intriguing.

[Jack Olsen]

I've driven both and I would say that in stock form, a 944 is actually a harder car to drive. It's heavy and under-powered; overcoming that on the track takes a lot of skill.

I think most people would agree that a 911 is a simpler and more durable car. It becomes a matter of opinion when you go to issues like which is a more satisfying car to drive or which is ultimately going to make the better race car.

The 911 is the legend, though. I don't think anyone can question that. Look at its role in the last 40 years of production-car-based sports car racing.

But that's drifting from the central question. Does an SC make you a better driver? I still say: it's the best car to drive if your goal is to become a great driver of a 911SC.

[mede8er]

But that's drifting from the central question. Does an SC make you a better driver? I still say: it's the best car to drive if your goal is to become a great driver of a 911SC.

Jacks point truly hits home.....I've driven a few different cars in my day and no two are the same to me.....Miata, 944, Audi, 911...each has its own characteristics......

But I didn't enjoy the style of driving them like I do a 911....

Does that make sense........

[Tom W]

There are the effects of handling and the skill level of the driver both to consider ...

I'd think of it in terms of a low-powered car might help you learn to corner better faster than you would learn in a high-powered car.

If you drive a high-powered car, it's easy to get respectable lap times even if you don't drive that well because you have the power to compensate for poor driving in the turns.

If you drive a low powered car, to get a reasonable lap time you really need to learn to get every bit out of the turn possible because you know you will not do well on the straights.

I've seen a number of folk switch from a 911 to a spec miata and when they come back to the 911 are much faster because they have learned to handle the turns better and get more comfortable being at the limit in turns.

I've seen a number of folk drive 996 cup cars and absolutely suck in the turns but have the extra hp keep them ahead on the straights. Sure, their lap times are a lot slower than other cup cars, but the times are pretty darn fast compared to a stock 911SC or even a 993.

Evil handling (70's Camaro?) will not teach you to drive better if you are a beginner. It will simply make life difficult.

In any case, as long as a car handles reasonably well, it should not make much difference to the beginner. Once they know the basics and need to learn to push a car to it's potential, then I think a car with less aids (PSM, etc) will help them learn how to handle a car (weight transfer) and to be most comfortanle in the turns a lower-powered car might help speed the process. A high powered car without many aids (eg, a cup car) would probably not be a good car for a beginner to learn with as it magnifies mistakes and makes it easy to go very fast.