Dedicated AutoXer... 944 or 914

[joetiii]

I think I'm at the limit of changes to my 69 911 to make it competitive in autocross. While I truly love driving this car on the course and turn some respectable times, I find myself placed in Modified class because of the 3.0 parked in the back end. Since this is mainly a streetcar, I'm not going to do wider fenders, wheels, roll cages etc., to be more competitive.

So my thoughts have turned to making a dedicated autox car and a relatively low budget. Locally, I am finding 914s and 944s in the fixerup stage that run 2-4k. My initial thought is that the 944 being 10 years newer should have a more solid chassis under it with a strong powertrain that requires fewer modifications to be competitive.

However, in my short autox experience, I have seen more 914s with TTOD than 944s, so it would seem that the 914 has greater modifyability to turn faster times. So I guess the question really is how much more money would a 914 require over a 944?

[petevb]

Are you going for class wins, PAX or TTOD? Will you drive the car to events or trailer it?

For the autocross a roll cage, wide fenders, etc are not required... Where are you with the 911, what modifications and tires are you using, and how much experience do you have with it so far?

The high polar moment of the 944 and low weight over the drive wheels makes it a difficult starting point for an autocross car- your 911 would start out with a number of advantages over it. Boxsters are getting cheap...

But I'm wondering if you shouldn't stick with the 911 for a while longer, depending on your goals, and perhaps make a few choice mods. A street driven 3.0L '69 with the right setup can be within a second or two of a GT-3 or well modified 914, ie it might grab TTOD on some days depending on the course and competition.

[911st]

Just a few thoughts.

The SCCA A mod class champ for several years some time back was a stock appearing in and out 70 911T w 901 trans, 2.7 on carbs with E cams (apx 200hp), 8&8.5" by custom 15's w 225's BFG R1's front and rear with SC flairs. Still had the stock little brakes, did not even have a front oil cooler, and not one spoiler or pice of fiberglass. It looked like a stock car except for the drivers seat and the SC rear flairs.

What he did have was a well set up suspension, tires, and a great driver.

A couple of years later there was a local guy that ran a stock suspension 89 cab with shocks, tires, chip that was set low and corner balanced. He dominated and was typically the TTOD ahead of full race cars that were brought to the track on a trailer.

For both of these cars to be beat it typically took something like a 3.5 RSR/MFI'd wide body 914 with a nationally ranked driver.

I guess what I am saying is you could just get a set of cookie cutters, put some 205 Hoosiers, 225 V700's, or slicks on it along along with a good suspension kit. No need for roll bar, flairs or such unless the rules changed requiring it. The 69E is a very light car out of the box.

This could be an option instead of spending an bunch of money and effort on another car.

[joetiii]

Originally Posted by petevb

Are you going for class wins, PAX or TTOD? Will you drive the car to events or trailer it?

For the autocross a roll cage, wide fenders, etc are not required... Where are you with the 911, what modifications and tires are you using, and how much experience do you have with it so far?

The high polar moment of the 944 and low weight over the drive wheels makes it a difficult starting point for an autocross car- your 911 would start out with a number of advantages over it. Boxsters are getting cheap...

But I'm wondering if you shouldn't stick with the 911 for a while longer, depending on your goals, and perhaps make a few choice mods. A street driven 3.0L '69 with the right setup can be within a second or two of a GT-3 or well modified 914, ie it might grab TTOD on some days depending on the course and competition.

Right now, I drive to my events on street tires and can change over to 225 stickies on 15x7 wheels. I have ER bushings, monoballs, sc trailing arms, 21/27 bars and 20mm sways. spent this past year at 7 events dialing in the sway bars and tire pressures.

This being my third season, I started with the EVO 2 day school and made huge improvements all season, though I still need tons of seat time to know the right amount of speed to carry through certain parts of the courses. I am consistently within a 1-2 seconds of the better drivers in stock 911 categories so I know i have a way to go. The modded 911s with big tires and gt3rs are 6-8 seconds faster and I can't say I can get there with Roxie. There is a nicely modded 914 that hangs tight with those just mentioned.

I may give another year to the 69 but I am without a project this winter and thought of starting something new, that could possible go from autox to DE at some point

[racer]

I've bounced around in several cars lately. To me, the key would be to understand the group you wish to run with. PCA? SCCA? Other local clubs? No point in making a dedicated car that doesn't fit the rulebook.. that's where you are now with your '69 right? My latest 914 was great for PCA events, but would have me outclassed for SCCA.

914s make great AX cars.. however.. they are 30+ years old which makes parts sometimes an issue. "fast" 914s, typically aren't stock.. often a large 4 or 6 has been dropped in.. flares, big wheels, brakes, cages, suspension work etc. many of the things things you don't want to do to your 911. If not buying someones sorted, proven car, you MUST check for RUST Everywhere on these cars.

944s can make good cars. They are very well balanced. Their enemy is weight. 2700lb to start with and depending on motor (base 8Valve, 16V, Turbo etc) go from enemic to fast. Not sure a Turbo makes a good base, if only due to the low rpm lag. S2's make great versions.

You also don't mention a budget for car/mods etc. We can all suggest a $15-18K Boxster S, but if you are talking $7-10K, that won't work will it. Are you shooting for TTOD or just winning your class (whatever class that may be)

What are the more popular classes to run in? The year I ran my boxster I had great fun because I was guaranteed 7-10 in class competitors. With my 914 I as often the only entrant in class.

[crashmy911]

Friend of mine has a 69 911 withsc flairs and a 3.2 motor. Wins almost every autocross he enters with it. Plus at driver educations keeps up with gt3's and all manners of race cars.

[joetiii]

Racer.... all good points. I have only AutoXed with local PCA groups. With both NER and CVPCA, I try to fit their May thru Oct dates in my calendar, though family life takes most summer weekends.

After restoring the 69, I realize that this project needs to start with as rust free a car as possible, and that someone elses started race project given up on may be a better choice than a roller with boxes of parts. I suppose the least costly route would have been to buy JP Steins car 45 days ago.

The more I think about it, I do have a very well sorted car right now that needs some additional time on the alignment rack to take more time off. That and some time fixing the loose nut behind the wheel will make the most impact.

Once the kids are done with college and I can commit more time and funds, I believe the 914 would make a better package than the 944.

[berettafan]

Same boat here.

Have a 70 w/ 2.4, 22/28 tbars and a good alignment.

Recently picked up a dirt cheap miata as a ax toy and believe its a better choice for me vs another 30yr old car.

Stories like those above push me to do better in the 911. I think there will be more satisfaction in being a good 911 driver vs yet another miata that everyone knows is about as good as it gets for sharp handling.

There is a guy in Va beach that kicks all manner of butt w/ a stockish longhood and I plan to run with his grp one day as a benchmark.

[berettafan]

In short i believe these cars are capable of doing very well its the driver (and tires) that must be right to get all the speed out of them.

[petevb]

Originally Posted by joetiii

The modded 911s with big tires and gt3rs are 6-8 seconds faster and I can't say I can get there with Roxie.

I've got some data logging comparisons between early cars and an SCCA nationals prepped 996 GT3, same driver same tires. Given that data I'd guess your car, same tires, driver and correctly prepared (strong motor, good shocks, alignment, lowered, etc) should be roughly 1.5-3 seconds slower than a GT3 RS. The fact that you're 3-6 seconds off that mark points to either a setup or driver issues.

You don't need to wide body or a cage- I've taken a couple early cars with no more than Carrera flares and 16" wheels to a number of TTODs against fairly stiff competition. Those cars had more power than you do, but I also wasn't using hoosier A6s or slicks.

Again for the AX I believe the 944 has too much polar moment and not enough weight over the rear wheels to really be regularly competitive for TTOD against stiff competition. If I was starting a PCA AX car project now and didn't need to worry about smog I'd pick a boxster first, a 914 second (and a 912 third). FYI I've owned and raced 4 944s/ turbos.

The smart money would be to buy an already built 914. But as I said above if I were you I'd stick with your 911 and figure out how to find the missing ~3-5 seconds. If and when you do it will serve you well when you switch to another platform, as it really does teach some driver skills that are hard to learn another way. It will also involve learning car tuning, which is a skill that will also transfer over to your new ride eventually.

[J P Stein]

Originally Posted by joetiii

I suppose the least costly route would have been to buy JP Steins car 45 days ago.

Probably....I got maybe 50 cents on the dollar for it. A couple guys that like to run at the sharp end of the field bought it. Then it ate CVs at two consecutive events.
Life up front takes some time & effort and there are no sign post pointing the way.
914s are a bare canvas to be painted on. Make the right moves when in mod mode & you'll end up close to your TTOD.....but a Miata will get ya there for half the price.....or in the case of Pete's car, one fifth.

[SandyI]

A 944 makes a terrific track car almost stock. Spec 944's rock and can be built including the initial investment for $15,000 - $20,000.

But in an A/X, no Porsche beats a 914/4, dollar for dollar. That being said, it's VERY easy to pour money into a 914/4 to get it competitive. $20,000+ And I'll bet the 914 that won the Porsche Parade this year was $20K++++.

[petevb]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

914s are a bare canvas to be painted on.

That's just a state of mind... Everything's a blank canvas with a little imagination

Originally Posted by J P Stein

Make the right moves when in mod mode & you'll end up close to your TTOD.....but a Miata will get ya there for half the price.....or in the case of Pete's car, one fifth.

Yea, yea, and you can get a go-cart and go even faster for less. No need to remind me JP, but I'll enjoy.

944s make great track cars; turbos are excellent (up to a point, and maintenance can get steep)...

[eric523]

I'd say stick with what you have and spend the money on seat time. If you're being beat by two seconds by similar cars that's the area of improvement to focus on.

And if I had to choose I'd say 914 over 944 but I'm a little biased

[Cory M]

Originally Posted by SandyI

A 944 makes a terrific track car almost stock. Spec 944's rock and can be built including the initial investment for $15,000 - $20,000.

or just buy mine for $5k, drop in a replacement engine and hit the track

944 Spec Racecar for sale - SoCal

[Porschephile944]

Just for a reference point I run a pretty stock eight valve 944 with NER and NCR. How I place for the day depends on how well I'm driving.

Originally Posted by racer

What are the more popular classes to run in? The year I ran my boxster I had great fun because I was guaranteed 7-10 in class competitors. With my 914 I as often the only entrant in class.

This is possibly the best piece of advice in this thread. I've found that with no one to compete against I can be bored out of my mind. With that said I am also a very competitive person, which is part of the appeal of autox for me. NER and NCR are both great places for a 944 to run, there are at least 6 of us that show up on a regular basis to compete against.

It also sounds like part of the appeal for you might be in the project versus the actual competition? Please, tell me if this is wrong.

With all that said boxsters are getting cheap and they already can come close to TTOD. ,Throw on some PSS9s, GT3 sway bars and GT3 front control arms, hoosiers, and a trailer hitch, and you would have a very formidable machine in my mind. Although you can find miatas pretty cheaply and The renegade miata club seems like a pretty good group of people.....

[J P Stein]

[QUOTE=petevb;4968131]That's just a state of mind... Everything's a blank canvas with a little imagination

QUOTE]

True, Pete, but it's not only looks but results that count at AX.

For the last 2 years we've run against a Cobra clone at the National Tour event.
He regularly cleans house over in Boise.
In terms of presentation, power, tires, yada, we would be beaten before we started....we having half the HP & all.( EM & XP) He came closer this year....a couple/3 seconds over the 2 days, but we still got the free tires from Hoosier.

The bottom line is that at autocross amongst Porshes, 914s rule & it's no fluke.

[Dave at Pelican Parts]

The 914s that really rule tend to be autoX specialists, though. Very very light weight, and not a lot of thought given to high-speed stuff. And none at all to streetability.

And most of them are cars with quite a bit of cash pumped into them. (With one or two exceptions.)

A lot of the answer to how competitive a car will be is who the local competition is. And I really don't know anything about New England drivers...

--DD

[petevb]

Originally Posted by J P Stein

For the last 2 years we've run against a Cobra clone at the National Tour event.
He regularly cleans house over in Boise.
In terms of presentation, power, tires, yada, we would be beaten before we started....

It might be the other way around... Without weight over the rear and a fair polar moment the Cobra has some fatal flaws as an AX car. Of course I'd have said the same thing for my friend's viper ACR, and he's beaten Leeds up in his neck of the woods with his street car, so it's obviously course dependent, etc...

Originally Posted by J P Stein

The bottom line is that at autocross amongst Porshes, 914s rule & it's no fluke.

Did I suggest otherwise? I said buy a used, prepped 914 from a value standpoint. I'd buy a boxster/ cayman if I was starting an AX only project fresh, partly for the challenge and parlty because when you take a boxster as far as many 914 AX cars (such as your old one) I believe ABS, etc will eventually make it the faster outlaw. I'm certainly not arguing with you though- the stripped, trailered 914 is clearly the 800 pound gorilla of the porsche autocross world. Beating them regularly, especially without a dedicated, trailered AX car, shouldn't really be possible... It's a shame you sold your car, but I'm sure I'll see it around.

[J P Stein]

Britain Smith bought it. He says he wants to go to the SD NT event & the Nats....so he'll be around. Up this way there are/were a couple CSP Maitas that reqularly hand both Leeds & us our hats.