What good is handling in corners if you always get passed on the straights?

[sugarwood]

Originally Posted by KTL

Watch these guys in the yellow & white 3.0 RSRs duke it out in a similar fashion at Road Atlanta (also a horsepower track) with a big power early Mustang. Notice how they best the Mustang in the brake department and close the gap on the Mustang very well under braking. In the Firebird video, we never really saw the 911 closing the gap under braking, did we?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x2MbuSvqxE&index=1&list=FLHJMEWT4gFl2ZdNW7zqeFaw

At 1:16, the Mustang seems to pivot left effortlessly. That looked very cool.

It was interesting to see at 5:43, the driver downshifts 3 gears, and the tach never really goes that high. He also passes 2 cars during this, as they all approach the turn.

[michael lang]

it just goes to show you that if you can drive a slow car fast, you can drive anything fast!!

[wayner]

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

You've got to take into account class. The low powered cars aren't in the same class as the high powered cars.

That's what made it so interesting when the P2 Penske cars took the overall wins at some tracks. That was my favourite season of racing to watch ever, with e underdog scrapping it out for inches in the corners and the big Audis powering down the straights.

With the mix of fast tracks and tight tracks it was a really interesting season to watch!

[sugarwood]

Wayner, you have any video links of the mixed class racing you're referring to?

[Matt Monson]

Those RS Spyders were amazing racecars.

[wayner]

I have poor connectivity today so can;t view any videos but these links might lead to some good battles. (They may just be good race footage though, I haven't previewed them)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC7VTO0czqA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXLGMZDKBv8

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_GE60Zq0kc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOh9kAwCwBk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AhS7_eVA8zc



Sugarwood, look at imsa.com as well for the latest.

ALso, note that in racing "MOST" passing is done on the brakes, not coming out of a corner on the power.
The passes that are out of the corner where set up on corner entrance

The problem with modern racing though is that they epic battles will not happen again. The organizers make sure of it by assessing wight penalties etc. now.

Much of the class racing and brand competition is so contrived today, unlike the early days where Porsche could show up with their new 1955 spyder at less than 2 litres and win over a hugely powerful ferrari.

[Dan J]

Another point not mentioned is the power the V8 cars are now making

A good friend of mine works on vintage american road race cars.
Brand new 700hp Chevies Fords or Dodges are readily available at prices that would make
us Porsche guys cry. Pay a little more and it's 850hp

Larry doesn't worry about making them light anymore. He worries about making the drivetrain strong enough

However I can't help myself I love the "Ass engined Nazi slot cars"

[wayner]

Dan raises a good point. An extra 20, 50, or even 100 horsepower in some cases is not that significant when you have to slow down for the corners. You need LOTS of extra hp to win a drag race to the end of the straight and make it stick.

One of my most fun track events was using this white 150 hp skinny tired 72 911 to chase down silver turbos. It took me three laps of getting passed and then harassing them through the twisty section again each time, before I could finally make it stick without getting caught again on the straight the next lap.

Sure it was a DE event, and we were pointing each other by, but we were all being good sports and giving the point by any time the car behind us was closing significantly or filling mirrors for more than a couple of corners (or yards down a straight).

Their fun ended when we came upon red traffic this time through the twisties. I put two more cars between us and those fast silver cars on the twisty back section and gave myself a buffer. The head start that I got down the straight was just enough not to get caught which meant that by the time I had cleared the twisties on e more time, I had gotten away. Man I was working hard but what a hoot!
They had lots of power, but with that low powered lighter little white car I just couldn't afford to slow down for the corners.

Like lots of the guys on the board, once you've experienced that you'll get it

[Charles Freeborn]

Originally Posted by wayner

Dan raises a good point. An extra 20, 50, or even 100 horsepower in some cases is not that significant when you have to slow down for the corners. You need LOTS of extra hp to win a drag race to the end of the straight and make it stick.

One of my most fun track events was using this white 150 hp skinny tired 72 911 to chase down silver turbos. It took me three laps of getting passed and then harassing them through the twisty section again each time, before I could finally make it stick without getting caught again on the straight the next lap.

Sure it was a DE event, and we were pointing each other by, but we were all being good sports and giving the point by any time the car behind us was closing significantly or filling mirrors for more than a couple of corners (or yards down a straight).

Their fun ended when we came upon red traffic this time through the twisties. I put two more cars between us and those fast silver cars on the twisty back section and gave myself a buffer. The head start that I got down the straight was just enough not to get caught which meant that by the time I had cleared the twisties on e more time, I had gotten away. Man I was working hard but what a hoot!
They had lots of power, but with that low powered lighter little white car I just couldn't afford to slow down for the corners.

Like lots of the guys on the board, once you've experienced that you'll get it

Where's the " Like" button??!!

[Tom W]

Been there done that. The OP asks what good is it to catch up in the turns and KT's answer is that's where you pass. I agree. At Road American the damn high HP cars are a PITA to get past. I've had lots of laps there trying to get past a cup car or 928 where they walk away on the straights but over-brake in the turns. The only way to get past and make it stick is to pass at T5 and then get enough ahead that they can't catch you at Canada Corner or T1. You have to make your car wide in T6 through the kink. It can be done but it's a lot of work.

Here's a fun race I had at RA, cursing the cup cars most of the time and wishing for more HP... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VVGyl7Cgw4 In this video, the cayman is also GT3 but it appears he has more HP than I do (I'm about 315) but I do get past and make it stick.

[winders]

Yes, Tom, and those Cup Cars are super annoying at Sears Point too!

[wayner]

Great video Tom, I enjoyed that.

[rkeele]

+1

[Cory M]

Passing on the straights is boring anyway, anyone can be fast between the corners. The fun is in the racecraft: figuring out the strengths and weaknesses of competing cars on the same track. Where you can brake later, carry more speed through the corner, and make it stick on the track out. Planning, setting up, and executing your move. Then pushing hard to keep them behind you.

The events I've been to where I have the fastest car in the group and start on the front row are generally the least memorable. The fun is battling it out and earning your position.

[Plavan]

Video from a "Drag Car" with over twice the amount of HP as my Porsche 911. It takes awhile, but once I get him, he can't keep up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeG20UkxlDE&list=LL9wU3oWJzomXePV8MsyHQtw&index=4


Then, my favorite. Playing chess and using a "pick" backmarker to make things work. Especially in this long straight configuration.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZKkPgVjCIQ

[sugarwood]

Skip to 7:30 to see the setup for the 911 going ahead

[sugarwood]

I love seeing vintage muscle being raced. So glad someone is thrashing their mid 60's Vette instead of polishing it for the monthly 1.4 mile drive to the cruise night.

[sugarwood]

Plavan, that was fun! 11:40 to 13:00 (particularly 12:55 to 13:15) nicely illustrates the “muscle car vs. Elise/911/Miata” chess match.
Their characteristics are mirror images of each other.

https://youtu.be/UZKkPgVjCIQ?t=11m43s

[sugarwood]

What do you think was the weight difference between the Muscle and your 2.7 Porsche ?

[Sterling Doc]

NASA Midwest used to have a sort of "bracket racing" for road racing. At the end of the weekend, they would take your fastest lap times from the regular racing class, to make new classes based on lap times for that weekend for a bonus race. As one of the faster 944's, I would typically get classed with higher HP cars, often with "CMC" class Mustang and Camaros that would have a good 100 more HP, and 600 lbs more weight, along with inferior handling.

t was some of the most fun racing I've done, especially at tracks like Gingerman, that string togther lots of twisty bits. Lots of racecraft at play. You try and suck them them into outbraking duels, in the corner before a straight. If you could get them to come into that corner too hot, they could not get on the power early to use their power advantage out of the corner - win! Then you would make them go around the outside (the long way), and if they did get by, pull right in the draft, only to pull out again under braking, where you could again make up time. Pull this off well, and you'd at least be in striking distance in the twisties, where you would be all over them, and seek to control the corner in such a way to keep them from getting back on the gas (delay their turn in). If all else fails, you hound them mercilessly until their overworked tires and brakes gave up the ghost.

They car is not to stuff your nose in every opportunity you have - you kill your precious momentum - study their line, and where their car is weak, and a make a decisive move then. Bluff and feint all you like, but be strategic and decisive on where and how you make a move. It's a challenge, and frustrating at times, but very satisfying when you pull it off.

Or you can swap an LS motor into your 944, and have it all!



To paraphrase Homer Simpson: Horsepower, the cause of, and solution to all of racing's problems....