Impact Bumper vs 964
 

Late impact bumper SC/3.2s of all body styles and millages seem to be having a lot of fun right now. At the same time I haven't seen all that many 964s listed and sold. Curious to hear opinions on if the market is super hot for all of the above or if there's a pre '89 moment happening.

I sold my 3.2 a few years back and after a Porscheless spell have been daily driving a 964. Not particularly interested in selling just armchair observing while I work-zoom :)

I used to own a 3.2 G fiddy, and sold it to buy a 964. I don’t understand the G body price pump. They are so much more plentiful than the 964. G bodies are amazing cars to be sure, but the supply:demand ratio doesn’t add up to the prices we’ve been seeing.

To be clear I'm not trying to take apart the market or throw any shade. I'm just saying I haven't seen all that many 964 sales recently and the ones I have seen have trended to outliers like RSA or 12k mile unicorns etc. Curious where a ~90k mile basic color, honest condition 964 sits these days given impact excitement.

Here's a basic color honest condition 964 you'll want to keep your eyes on..

https://bringatrailer.com/listing/1991-porsche-911-carrera-2-45/

Impacts are the affordable option

Like myself if you have a 964 you aren't selling unless someone throws FU money at me. I have 4 and have no interest in parting with them. Most I know that have thema re doing the same.

964's are trading hands but more privately than anything else and the prices are a bit outrageous but if you want a nice one you have to pay up for it. Lots of pigs with lipstick out there or overpriced cars needing a lot of deferred maintenance.

964's are now being de-backdated ..... that was a short trend.
the S/C is the sweet spot right now. value/dollar. due diligence required, as always ...
the 915 is also becoming more desirable. or less undesirable. :)
anecdotal - i prefer my S/C over the 964 i owned previously (and i did love the 964).
it's more-or-less a question of where your preferences are on the sports car/gt car continuum.
YMMV and probably does. :D

964’s have been in demand for many years now and while they are still appreciating, it is at a slower rate than some of the other air cooled cars that didn’t have an “early” run up.

993’s have always been in demand as they are the “last” and most powerful & developed of the air cooled cars. 993’s (like the 964) also maintain a classic roofline and some interior details.

The charm of the SC 3.0 through the G50 3.2 cars (compared to the 964 & 993) are their classic looks, mechanical simplicity, and reliability (when a few issues are addressed). The G body cars have remained fairly affordable (less so the G50 cars), and are finally receiving their due in the marketplace. I feel the mid year cars are lagging slightly due to the mag engine case and a few other well documented problems.

If prices for these cars keep escalating, I’m afraid the true “enthusiast,” who loves to drive & work on these cars, will be priced out of the market. I feel that the coupe versions of the 3.2 G50, 964, and 993 are close to that threshold.

I would hate to see air cooled Porsches, cars that were actually meant to be driven, follow Ferrari’s example with speculators driving up prices that turn the cars into non driven “stocks” that trade hands at ridiculous prices. I recall watching an auction of a 40k mile Ferrari 308 (a fairly common Ferrari) and a prospective buyer from a well know shop saying “what am I gonna to with a Ferrari that has over 30k miles” - eluding to the fact that it will be near impossible to sell.

Another “negative” of the price run ups is that spare part prices have kept pace with the run up and have made it difficult for a “blue collar” enthusiast to buy spares. Not that long ago a good core 3.0 aluminum case engine was around $2.5k - $3k, now it’s probably $7.5k and up. Same for the 915 transmission, less than $1k for a good core to over $2k.

Sorry to ramble, I’ve seen several similar discussions on the same topics. I am concerned that the true enthusiast will be the main casualty if prices continue to escalate...

It’s been more than a decade since those SC engine and 915 low prices you mention were true.

http://forums.pelicanparts.com/porsche-marketplace-discussion/1083939-new-scam-while-trying-buy-964-a-10.html#post11295418

I think we're reaching that point already. Air cooled 911s won't ever reach the crazy heights we see for Ferraris but enthusiasts are already being priced out. Plenty of guys still get 'em out on the road but more and more of them are spending time in garages.

It sucks...

first page: 20% of the dealer "cars for sale" are 964 variants.
is that where the profit lies?

I’m not sure Tarek counts. That’s all he sells and he only advertises places where it’s free

I disagree if you compare the 308 market to the 911 market prices are higher than what you are accustomed to seeing a 911 sell for but they all have 30k or less miles. i don't think they ever drove them and if you find a 308 with comparable miles to a high mile SC or other 911 usually the 911 will bring more or if you find a sub 30k mile all original 911 it will command six figures in many cases more than a comparable F car of the same vintage. Also they started out as much more expensive cars in the day.

^^ I see what you are saying and do not disagree but 911s and Ferraris used to be bought and sold differently (bought my first 911SC from an Autotrader rag for $12,000, yes, you could find a 308 in Autotrader but it wasn't the norm).

My point being trying to obtain a nice air cooled 911 now is becoming as difficult as some of the lower tier Ferraris. There were a lot more Porsches made and still plenty of dogs to be found compared to 308s, however.

As much as I miss my 964 and regret selling it for half of what I they’re going for today, I can’t help but think I’d be looking at a $25k engine rebuild if I still owned it. Same goes for my old 993. I spoke to a well known air cooled Porsche mechanic who had been involved in Porsche racing innovations over the years. He said that the 964 and 993 have not aged well compared to the SCs and 3.2s. So much more expensive to maintain and needing tons more $$$ to get sorted after so many years.

These conversations tend to get circular..... I have been lucky enough to drive all of the air-cooled varieties. I would not kick any model to the curb....

There is no doubt as complexity arrives so does weight and the respective cost of service. This weight in my experience changes the feel regardless of additional power.

I currently own a 3.2L Carrera which I equate to a workhorse model with enough luxury to placate my wife yet still raw enough to make my heart race when chasing mates on rallys while not killing with expensive service requirements.

My list of interesting NA Impacts and 964 to face off

89 Speedster vs 94 Speedster

74,75,76 2.7 MFI Carrera or 3.2L Club Sport vs 964 Cup

When you go back and read threads from over a decade ago about g body vs. 964, the argument in favor of the 964, seems to be the daily driver-ability of the 964. That’s clearly not the case anymore. Few are looking to “daily” ANY of the air cooled Porsches anymore, except for maybe the 993. Seems the current emphasis is on the best driving experience and visceral “feel” when it comes to the air cooled cars. Just look at all the mods people are doing to add “lightness” and improve the raw feel of steering and suspension. Many are even moving back from the 3.2s to the SCs and middies because they like the old MFI and 915 gear box, as well as the lighter weight. I think for modern day performance and creature comforts, people are moving to the water cooled models. The 964 may always be more valuable, but I don’t think it will ever surpass the g body’s in present and future popularity.

Impacts are 911’s, 964’s are 964’s.

Well said, and the G50s are the final iterations of the classic 911. 964s would still be stuck behind the pack were it not for the Singer effect and similar.

What is the singer effect in your opinion?

Demand from those who wouldn't even consider the 964 otherwise, those who think they can build one and others like it, or sell one to those who ...

this

Interesting discussion but IMHO the best 911 (aircooled or water) is the one sitting in your driveway waiting for the next drive. Personally I prefer the 3.2 with a 915 because thats what I have and checks all the boxes for me. Recently had the chance to babysit a friends 964 Turbo while he was overseas and as much as that has always been a dream car to me I was less than impressed and happy to hop back into my 3.2 (though I'll admit the boost of the turbo was fun)

No offense to the 964 crowd, if that was what was in my garage then I would be singing its praises I'd imagine. Happy driving...in whatever 911 you are in

First off they are all impact bumpers cars. The 964/993 has impact bumpers as well and if you don't know that you don't know your 911's. They had an awful ride height due to the 5 MPH impact bumper laws in the US which only added to their ugly duckling effect. The 74 aluminum impact bumpers was IMO an afterthought rushed into production to meet DOT regulations. They took the time to update the outdated bellows bumpers and use a modern style cover over the aluminum impact bar for the 964 and 993 instead of painting it. The lines of the front bumper are closer to that of the long nose cars than the G body is.

Sounds like jealousy if you ask me. Although any 911 in good running condition is a nice ride so why the need to dissect them and categorize them? The turbo cars take some time to get accustomed to and are very different than the N/A 911's same as a 930 is to the SC or 3.2's. Each has its own pros and cons.

Sorry what a crock. What mechanic sold you this line?

Many of the 964/993 top ends are unnecessary and we all know about the early 964 engines but if you think having a full rebuild on a 3.2 or SC is any cheaper and or needed less frequently then you have a lot to learn.

I work on these all the time and the 964 is IMO the easiest to work on. Any air cooled engine rebuild will set you back at least $20k these days and I have a couple of SC engines waiting for a full rebuild with about the same miles as a 964 would need one.

There are pros and cons to each model none are perfect all need some personal tweaks.

Lol I agree what a crock

I do my own work for three reasons

1. I like it
2. It saves me money and I'm not a rich dude
3. I powerfully dislike breezy inherited wisdom and tired old hearsay trotted about "my uncle says you want to stay away from..."

I did a top end to the pistons inclusive of clutch and every last while you're in there on a 3.2 and 964. Cost was very close to being same.

Its fun conversation and sometimes educational.... when I first showed up here it was 3.0 vs 3.2, G50 v 915, long hood vs short hood etc.... conversation has evolved with the crazy growth in value but it has the same flavor.

This is PMD, a section of Pelican established with the purpose of talking about the Porsche market and cars being sold into it; what dictates values in the market. Dissecting and categorizing is how we do it.

This tends to provoke nuanced discussion between iterations. Here we have subject matter experts.... example I would go to you to discuss 964s, Nathan to discuss early Carreras, numerous folks when it comes to IB Turbos. These gentlemen tend to be marketplace experts.

It is my opinion that there is a tremendous difference between similar models that calls to both the hobbyist and the sportsman. An owner of a shine and show concurs and the owner of Club Racer have different expectations and requirements.

Thus the value of PMD to provide knowledge to make better decisions.....

qft.

I guess the only solution is to have one of each...

I like a good debate as much as the next guy and I agree it can be fun conversation. Lately more than ever though the need to dissect and categorize each iteration seems to be a big topic. Maybe it is the new what is the value thread. Now it is which one is best? To me there are many similarities and I don't only work on just 964's I work on every form of 911, 928, 944, 986, 981 etc from the early SWB cars to the current and latest 992's. I happen to prefer the 964 myself it is full of flaws as are they all.

I just picked up an 83 944 for a friend and we will be restoring it to like new condition. He is on a strict budget and he wanted to get in on the ground level and was happy to help. At least I hope I am not doing him a disservice. ;)

Not so sure that some of these topics help anyone but might actually create more of a divide and seem to be filled with comments based on lore. I think pointing out the pros of one over another is great conversation but somehow it seems to turn to bashing one over the other. Reminds me of the 80's when my 928 brothers would argue that it was a superior ride over the 911 or 944 or whichever way you want to play it.

I am a mechanic full time not a DIY guy
The 964 tub is light years ahead of the 911
If you have to ask why then your just a talking head
Later

That’s not nice, sorry

Just one tit bit the 964 has 5,000 spot welds
Of those over 4,000 are done with robots, that’s right 1989, not as advanced as today’s robotics of course. That means very close tolerances are met and by design it becomes an outstanding tub for building a race car on....
Many other things happened at Porsche staring in 1989

Pick a handle and stick with it, wollet. What a plonker.

Joe napolitano told me to tell you
Hi

Funny you say that I was helping with the repair of a 912 prototype yesterday that has extensive repair needed and it seemed as though someone went spot weld crazy on it. I do agree that the tolerances of the 964 are much better than the earlier 911's but nothing like todays machines. When I started my slick top conversion on the 964 using the factory skins we had to make a fixture to verify that nothing changed in the process and when comparing the 964 to other 964's they were quite close the older cars were all over the place. What you really notice is the construction methods and the materials used are superior. Although the tooling for the roof skins are showing their age. The corners just aren't as crisp as they were and need some attention before paint.


http://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1620304481.jpghttp://forums.pelicanparts.com/uploa...1620304572.jpg

Interesting discussion but this is really apples and oranges. As it’s been stated already, most of the “vs” discussions on the forums have been more direct comparisons. Such as 3.0 vs 3.2 or 915 vs G50 or F vs G.

The 964, which is basically a completely different car, has more in common with the 993 than the G body cars.

Personally, I favor F and G body cars while other will be drawn to 964’s and 993’s.

As far as the market goes, the 964 up until recently was fairly obtainable at reasonable prices. Similar to SC’s, the 964 has skyrocketed as has pretty much every 911.

I imagine the market will remain strong moving forward on both but I personally believe there are more buyers seeking out 74-89 models given the volume of cars built during this period and the lack of good inventory available.

I didn't intend this to be a discussion of the merits of the impact vs 964 cars just their prices. It seems a "garden variety" = ~60-150k miles, honest driver, normal colors impact coupe sells every ten minutes so I get a good sense of where their values are at but the only 964s I'm seeing are Cup cars, super low mile unicorns, convertibles, etc. Intent was to figure out if the "garden variety" 100k mi driver black on black G50 vs 964 coupe are... parity? one presently valued higher? Just a tire kickey idle mind question.

You won't see many 964's for sale as most who have purchased theirs already are keeping them and the only cars left are those rarities that the owners are trying to cash in on. There are very few 964 coupes in the US to start with so pickings are slim. I passed on a red/blk 89 C4 964 the other day as I have too many projects. The car was reasonable money due to a divorce and the court was selling it for a quick sale but the car had so many needs it would have been tough even for a flip at $35k and only 90k miles. My hesitation to buy proved that you grab it or it is gone. The car ended up selling for $45k and had another $35k in work needed at cost without addressing the cosmetic needs.

You have to figure you will be into any 964 for at least $75k most likely more these days in the end. Either pay up front or down the line but you will be at the same price point eventually.

my theory, one factor:
dealers snatched up/snatch up the inexpensive/semi inexpensive 964's.
that's why the dealer section of Pelican's "cars for sale" is wayyyy overrepresented with 964 variants.
helps drive prices upward - the profit motive.

respectfully - the 964 being easier to work on? certainly hasn't been my experience - even something as simple as an oil change is a miserable experience, comparatively speaking. : )