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I have emailed with the seller and asked him to email me a copy of the documents from Porsche and he refused, so this is smelling more and more fishy with every passing moment....

Hope you guys find out who is playing games here and would love to see the VIN behind the kneepad...
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Old 06-27-2006, 02:55 PM
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Sounds easy enough.
Sent an email with contact info. So we will see if I get to see it in person.

I Will this out on my car tonight to get an idea, If he does know about the sheet metal I will bring it up in the chat. to see if he will demo first.
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Old 06-27-2006, 02:56 PM
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Pretend to be an inspector for a wealthy collector. He'd balk if someone with expertise was showing up.
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Old 06-27-2006, 02:58 PM
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goat- also take a close look at the serial number boss on your engine- note the thickness of it. These hardly vary at all. If there has been a shave job done on the # boss of this RS, you will see it pretty quickly.

Also look for the engine type # located on the horizontal part of the case just behind the serial #. it should be about 5 mm tall and state 911/83 .

Another detail will require crawling under the car to look at the casting date for the engine block. This will be found on the driver side of the engine case above the exhaust system. just above the EW casting logo. You will see a indented circular stamp- this has the month and year of manufacture. As a first 500 car, i would expect to see 72 or 73 in that indentation. the next post here is a couple close up pics on a 77 case so you know what to look for. its almost inpossible to see this without the car up on a lift, so that may take some talking on your end so you can get this and the transmission # too
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Old 06-27-2006, 04:15 PM
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here are pics of that date code casting

Old 06-27-2006, 04:17 PM
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If your base restricts access to ebay here is the Q/A's he let on the site:

Question & Answer Answered On

Q: Hi Kunst-freund. Thank you for the docs. Please note that I have received several scam mails, because I am the high bidder,especially from someone using the E-bay name udpide ouf Ohio. I forwarded a copy to your E-mail.
Jun-27-06

A: Thank you Marc, it is not a surprise, especially with these kind of cars on E-bay. I am not worried because real buyers will inspect the car anyway. BUT I HAVE NOW ADDED PICTURES OF THE CERTIFICATE ON E-BAY under my oher item # for sale RS certificate. item # 330001951825. You will find the info from the Konradsheim RS book on options & the certificate from PORSCHE. As mentioned before this certificate is part of the SALE of this RS vehicle. I AM also in posession of the ORIGINAL GERMAN FAHRZEUGBRIEF- documenting this vehicle!!!! Again , thanks a lot for all your great discussions and info I am receiving. Sorry that I am only posting a few. SEE ORIGINAL RS DOCS!!!


Q: Can you please post a photo of the Factory confirmation on this car? There seems to be a question about there being two cars with this VIN number and before I risk over $100k on a car wanted to see some documention. I not have a fax (thats 1970's tech) so pls just put it on the auction or email it to me.
Jun-27-06

A: There is only one car with correct engine and transmission number and stamped chassis #. And that's mine. #406 is an original sunroof car -look at the RS book by Konradsheim-. The replica mentioned, does not even have a sunroof- no stamped chassis #, non number matching engine and transmission and wrong colour ( asking price was 10000-15000 US$ internet scam- wake up) !!!!!. It is a replica with a 10$ replica VIN plate- nothing else!!!! There are appr. 5000-7000 cars around like this - they came over from Japan the last 10 years and most ended up on the US market. I have seen some really good replicas, with even good stamping of the chassis number over the last few years. But there give away - they ALL don't have number matching engines and most of the time incorrect gauges and replica or steel frame ducktail. . Will only fax document for security purpose -last 4 digits will be not readable. I don't want these kind of docs.- even the layout floating around. REAL serious buyers will understand that. Document is part of the Sale to protect the High bidder, not to entertain the public. If you do have the RS book by Konradsheim look at the options of the vehicle and compare to my listing.


Q: I'll bet you are getting pounded with questions! Would you send, at your convenience, the information on the 280SL ? Looking for a good one...and they are hard to find! looks like you have quality stuff -thanks Drew ********porsche@bellsouth.net
Jun-27-06

A: I got appr. 50 questions a day. Give me call and we can talk about the SL. Dr. Andreas Anton 707-431-2239 , best after 5 p.m CA time


Q: Hi: Who can I contact to verify the car and the value?
Jun-25-06

A: As i mentioned in my add,there is an excellent mechanic in San Rafael app. 1h away from here. He is the only one familiar with these cars. A proper check out will cost appr. 300-400$. Regarding market value. Try to find a number matching 500 series RS. Prices start at 140K and upwards with a RSR at 450K.


Q: Are you going to sell the RSR?
Jun-25-06

A: No , I will not sell the RSR. I would like to take this opportunity to thank a lot of people for their genuine interest and conversation I had, even if the car is not in their price league. Let's also talk about the scams, false- E-mail, hidden numbers under dashboards? and knee pads?? and so on . All B. S. Please do not bother me with it anymore. If you are for real you know what you have to look for!! THIS IS THE REAL THING CERTIFIED BY PORSCHE IN GERMANY!!


Q: greetings from los angeles, i'm very interested in the 67S . . .what is the color? what options? what condition (cosmetically, mechanically)? pics? many thanks, alan wertheimer
Jun-23-06

A: 67S. Currently under full restoration. Correct engine and transmission, ivory white, 60.000 documented miles. Rust free vehicle. Cosmetically and mechanically a real strong #2 car. Real collector's car. Meant to be driven.


Q: The documentation pictured in your auction is from Mercedes Benz. Would it be possible to post photos of documentation from the Porsche factory where they verified the authenticity of the car? Thanks in advance.
Jun-23-06

A: Will fax to serious buyers after talking to them But yes it has come to my attention that I posted the info from the 300 SE convertible I recently sold.


Q: Hello, I am interested in more information about your RS. Could you remove the lower right knee pad below the dash and take a photo of the production # listed there? Thanks for your help. Brian
Jun-23-06

A: No, sorry will not. It is PORSCHE CERTIFIED and you for sure don't want to have number floating around ,so 3 Japanese replicas will be built.


Q: Why do you show a Mercedes Benz document to support your Porsche story? This makes the offer look suspicious.
Jun-23-06

A: Please read previous answer. Took the Mercedes document form a previous 300 SE convertible I sold by mistake. Anyway will only fax Porsche Certificate to very serious buyers.


Q: what´s the buy it now pricing for it??? and also, can you send me some pics of the interior and the seats?? thanks, neto
Jun-23-06

A: A doubtful car with no history, non number matching is 140.000 US$. Sorry, can't add more pictures at this time. Interested buyer's should have the car inspected by someone.


Q: Your ad copy mentioned some other Porsche items for sale... I'd be curious to know something about the 67 911S as well as any spare 911 engines you may have. I appreciate your candor with regard to driving these cars. When I sold my 930 sometime ago, many people were fearful because it actually had over 100K miles on it and had made frequent excursions to Sears Pt and Laguna Seca. Race bred, race maintained. Paul in Benicia
Jun-23-06

A: Hi Paul , sorry all other engines are sold. The 67 S is very nice 62.000 miles documented, restored car with correct 901/02 engine and transmission. It was just repainted and it is completly stripped. Will be put together the next month and then is for Sale. I just recognized that I put the Certificate from the 300 SE convertible which I sold a month ago on E-bay and not the Porsche CERTIFICATE. Will fax the Certificate to serious buyers only.

- He did not post my question to him.... gosh!
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Old 06-27-2006, 04:26 PM
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and here is the item description:

Vehicle Description

911 RS, chassis # 911 360 0406. Out of the 1st 500 series (Homologation series) for racing sport. Can participate in any historic racing sport event. It is a number matching documented and Porsche verified car. High investment car with undoubtful history. Car was legally imported into the US and comes with German papers. I can also get a CA title for it, if requested. All import duties paid. No smog required. Can be brought back to Europe & GB tax free! Engine type 911/83 engine # 663 0400 . Transmission type 915/08 Transmission # 783 0399. Number MATCHING Homologation series!!!! Colour light yellow 6262. Car was inspected in Germany by Porsche and found to be correct number matching . Certificate is included. #406 was delivered as a touring model 472 with the following options : 220 ( limited slip differential) 441 ( Hirschmann antenna) 571 (rear fog light) 650 (electric sunroof). It still does have all the options. It was delivered new in Hamburg Germany/ Raffay. The 1st owner had it for several years until my father bought it. It then changed hands in the Eighties and was repurchased a few years back. The car was last painted app. 14 years ago in its original colour and does have some paint chips ( but still a 9 out of 10) (I believe engine bay and luggage compartment are still in factory paint and the 99.000 km ( 60.000 miles) are correct. At that time car was rebuilt with expensive original leightweigt parts. I do still have the original antenna, fog light, head rest. I also have all tools, blue 73 RS manual (RARE) red cover and original steering wheel, which was just recovered in leather (new condition). With it comes a signed Carrera RS book by Gruber & Konradsheim. The car still has the origninal 250 km speedometer and original multi purpose gauge, (correct OEl lettering) and the alu ducktail frame (only 1st series)/. It still has the dual horns (November /72). Original "Light bucket seats" are now installed in the vehicle with the two knurled screws per seat. Electric sunroof works fine. I had the car on the race track last weekend and it always puts a smile on any driver. We raced with a GT and a GT2 and believe me this car is by far the most fun. Like it said in its original advertisement" With the racing car in town Porsche Carrera RS". Carrera RS. " Only 500 MEN will drive in it". Look at the video at 73 Daytona win. The car is unbeatable in historic racing sport in the under 3 l class here in the US. With a high speed at 240 km/h and a 0-60 acceleration of 5.4 seconds. We installed a set of TURBO brakes and I do have the original alu calipers. Please also look at my other auction for an original remanufactured 911/83 engine, which has just been remanufactured in Germany. I strongly suggest that the buyer of this vehicle should race that engine and puts this original engine aside. Please don't make it a trailor queen. These cars are meant to be raced!!! Please feel free to call me at 1-707-431-2239 Ca time Dr. Andreas Anton. I sold a few other S cars and engines out of my collection and I am selling this gem, because I do still have a RSR. Ich spreche deutsch. I also do have a 280 SL Pagoda and 67 911S for sale ( last ones from my personal collection) The car can be shipped worldwide at buyer's expense. This is the REAL unmolested RS, number matching, original colours scheme. Prices for these kind of cars will sky rock and we have just seen the beginning of the market increase. Look a the value of paintings. I just sold two average russian paintings at a major auction house for over 500.000 US$ each and art pcs like this RS are completly undervalued. A lot is written about these cars so I don't want to copy another book. Please feel free to have the car inspected before the auction ends. There are two great Porsche mechanics here in Northern CA (Wine country). Please only bid if you are serious to purchase. I will end the auction early with the right offer. Car has a stainless steel muffler and heat exchangers. All parts are fully functional. Compression on engine is +/- 10 percent. 5 speed works perfect.
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Old 06-27-2006, 04:27 PM
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I don't think he liked the question I asked him. Here is his response:

"I will take all legal action against you, if you continue harrassing any of the bidders or me again?? Don't take this lightly- I am dealing with you kind of people in the art market every day. WHAT don't you understand about PORSCHE CERTIFIED??? They are the EXPERTS. Forward your phone # and address you coward to see weather you are for REAL."


The "harassment" he is referring to is when I asked him if he thought he could escape either the California Atrorney General or private lawyers for whatever poor schmuck ends up with the car.
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:37 PM
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I was a bidder on this car. I figured that I could fly out and check the documentation. Based on the seller's lack of willingness to answer the hard questions and the amount of controversy as to whether it is real or not, I stopped bidding. I figured if I could steal it for $100,000 I would be very happy. Its not worth the effort.
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by TRE Cup
goat
go to your carrera and push down in the center of the roof- doesn't cave in does it?
According to my RS book, it doesn't say that the roof is part of the car that received the lighter sheet metal. This seems to make sense, as you would only want to use the lighter weight sheet metal on parts that weren't structural.

-Wayne
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Old 06-27-2006, 05:45 PM
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This is his 'verification' from Porsche. In reality, it only verifies that Porsche built an RS with serial nr. 0406. It does not verify whether this is that car! Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. But this documentation has zero value.

Old 06-27-2006, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Prices for these kind of cars will sky rock and we have just seen the beginning of the market increase. Look a the value of paintings. I just sold two average russian paintings at a major auction house for over 500.000 US$ each and art pcs like this RS are completly undervalued. A lot is written about these cars so I don't want to copy another book.
It's funny, but out here on the east coast foreclosures are starting to go up. Too many people leveraged the hilt out of their homes, and are now finding that the house is worth less then the mortgage, and they can't make payments. I wonder how trends like that will impact his market outlook?

Quote:
WHAT don't you understand about PORSCHE CERTIFIED??? They are the EXPERTS.
Reminds me of one of the things that I don't like about stupidly rich people -- they're always telling you what others say, but seem to be clueless themselves. Don't they know how to think for themselves? Or do they only hire people for that?
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Old 06-28-2006, 03:44 AM
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Wayne,

The engine # for RS 406 is 6630400. I think you left off a zero.

Goat,

Here is what the engine serial # should look like. Very few people have the correct stamps to make these #s and *.



Also look at the Alumuinum VIN plate. Here is what it should look like. Note the 'KG' in Porsche. The later made ones say 'AG'. I can't tell from his fuzzy photos what it says.



Here is what the trunk stamped VIN should look like. Note the unusal spacing on both sides of the '3'. All the original ones look like this. I don't think this car does although again his phtos are so bad it is hard to tell.





And last, you will never get him to show you this, but if you can a photo here is the production # (from another RS close in sequence to 406).

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Old 06-28-2006, 03:45 AM
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Interesting that the current high bidder's eBay name translates to "Too good to be true".
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Old 06-28-2006, 05:22 AM
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There is a distinct difference in the spacing of the numbers on the eBay car compared to known RS's shown by Brian above. In fact, the numbers themselves are different. Look at the '6' - it's clearly a different font. Here's the eBay car:




Last edited by cegerer; 06-28-2006 at 06:12 AM..
Old 06-28-2006, 06:10 AM
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Old 06-28-2006, 06:26 AM
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try this:

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Old 06-28-2006, 06:34 AM
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In Europe it only costs 12.000 Euro,s his German spelling is even worse than my English. http://www.mobile.de/cgi-bin/da.pl?bereich=pkw&sr_qual=GN&top=3&id=111111112138 54096&


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Old 06-28-2006, 06:50 AM
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Look even closer and the "1" in Brian's post looks different from the ebay one too. Also can someone do a good zoom on the German post. It gives the photo of the trunk number but it is too small of a picture and my cheap programs can't increase the size without distorting it.
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Old 06-28-2006, 07:27 AM
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Wayne- good question on the sunroof metal thickness. The non s/r cars first 500 definitely had the thin metal for the roof. I do not know about the s/r cars- maybe some one who owns one can check it and report

The following parts are thin metal (.8 mm) on the first 500- RS and RS Touring
Front fenders
Front hood
Rear quarters
Door skins- frame from production
Back seat area
Door sills
Trunk floor
Top of dash (under the dashpad)
Instrument panel

French versions had the rear panel in thin metal as well and English (RHD) cars had the center tunnel in thin metal too

All this thin metal obviously begs the question as to rust- there was less of it to eat so the first 500 cars in xlnt condition and originality are rare indeed !

Good eyes on the fonts and spacing. Note that he subsequently posted another e bay auction just to show close up pics of the vin and aluminum # plate. He also posted the COA- which can be had via mail- not actual close inspection by PORSCHE CERTIFICATION

too bad- he probably thought he had bought the real thing at a deal last year in germany. now he most likely will be stung with it
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Last edited by TRE Cup; 06-28-2006 at 07:53 AM..
Old 06-28-2006, 07:50 AM
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